The Socialism/Communism Thread

[Paine]

Having done some consulting for a financial co-op recently...I actually arrived at exactly the opposite conclusion. The 40,000 workers in the co-op elect a 50 person governing body that then elects a nine person board that oversees the management team. The senior managers spend more time on trying to manage the politics of the three boards than actually running the company.

I do like enterprises where employees have a stake. Think its good business.

Interesting. Mind going into a bit more detail about the politics of the three boards that the managers were trying to wrestle with? No worries if not. Feel free to shoot me a DM as well. It’s a topic I’m legitimately interested in.

 

[chrissteel]

China is a pretty good example of a successful socialist country, for all their flaws. Same for the USSR. Despite their flaws, they managed to create a state that rivaled the power of the most powerful capitalist country to ever exist. China is clearly the current rival to American hegemony, as well.

Despite their their flaws . Really, should i make a list. No amount of military success is worth what their people have been thu.

 

[Paine]

China is a pretty good example of a successful socialist country, for all their flaws. Same for the USSR. Despite their flaws, they managed to create a state that rivaled the power of the most powerful capitalist country to ever exist. China is clearly the current rival to American hegemony, as well.

Despite their their flaws . Really, should i make a list

You already did, and I’m almost certain I’m far more aware of China’s flaws than you.

If that’s your response to my detailed, lengthy post, then I don’t think there’s a point engaging with you anymore. Goodbye!

 

[chrissteel]

They didn’t do this because of altruism or because they wanted to spread freedom. They did it because they knew that socialist economies in the third world would be a direct threat to U.S. economic hegemony.

You already did, and I’m almost certain I’m far more aware of China’s flaws than you.

If that’s your response to my detailed, lengthy post, then I don’t think there’s a point engaging with you anymore. Goodbye!

What you call flaws i would call evil, but i guess we have to agree to disagree. I could add a lot to the list. Would be interested to know your background and career. I am new here, you have make some good points, i certainly had not considered the situation in India.

 

[CRHeel94]

We basically have three types of co-ops down here: agricultural, financial (kind of like a credit union) and service. This co-op is financial, catering towards public sector educators. I actually caught a mistake in what I wrote previously...its not 40,000 workers, but rather affiliates (number might be a bit off but its roughly in that ballpark).
They have about 600k clients (use to be that you had to be an educator to be a client, bit that no longer the case). Then you have the 40,000 affiliates who are persons that have a stake in the co-op (IIRC it was a mix of one time deposit and then a monthly deduction from your salary at a fixed amount, all employees are automatically affiliates). That "investment" allows you to participate in the co-ops profits as well as participate in the co-op elections.

Every year, usually in Q4, the senior staff does a roadshow across the country for the affiliates. Basically a dog and pony show to communicate financial and social results. Some of these events are fairly large, some are very small. Periodically (every 3 years?) there is an election for the 50 person governing body (with a roughly 10-15% participation rate). Those elections are like a popularity contests...usually won by longtime educators in the bigger school systems. That governing body meets quarterly; their big job is naming the Managing Director as well as the 9 person board that acts broadly as a Board of Directors (those directors can either be from the 50 person governing body or independent): that board meets monthly to oversee the operation. The biggest challenge is for the 50 person Governing Body to name a competent 9 person board; usually the educators don't know much about finance. From the time I was there, the Managing Director spent most of his time catering towards the 50 person board, dishing all sorts of pork to keep them happy.

Recently we had another co-op (health care workers) that has basically gone bust. Their board of directors had no independent members and was full of health care workers that had little or no experience in finance. They failed to adequately comprehend the risk implications of the things their management team was doing until it was too late to catch.

 

[Paine]

We basically have three types of co-ops down here: agricultural, financial (kind of like a credit union) and service. This co-op is financial, catering towards public sector educators. I actually caught a mistake in what I wrote previously...its not 40,000 workers, but rather affiliates (number might be a bit off but its roughly in that ballpark).
They have about 600k clients (use to be that you had to be an educator to be a client, bit that no longer the case). Then you have the 40,000 affiliates who are persons that have a stake in the co-op (IIRC it was a mix of one time deposit and then a monthly deduction from your salary at a fixed amount, all employees are automatically affiliates). That "investment" allows you to participate in the co-ops profits as well as participate in the co-op elections.

Every year, usually in Q4, the senior staff does a roadshow across the country for the affiliates. Basically a dog and pony show to communicate financial and social results. Some of these events are fairly large, some are very small. Periodically (every 3 years?) there is an election for the 50 person governing body (with a roughly 10-15% participation rate). Those elections are like a popularity contests...usually won by longtime educators in the bigger school systems. That governing body meets quarterly; their big job is naming the Managing Director as well as the 9 person board that acts broadly as a Board of Directors (those directors can either be from the 50 person governing body or independent): that board meets monthly to oversee the operation. The biggest challenge is for the 50 person Governing Body to name a competent 9 person board; usually the educators don't know much about finance. From the time I was there, the Managing Director spent most of his time catering towards the 50 person board, dishing all sorts of pork to keep them happy.

Recently we had another co-op (health care workers) that has basically gone bust. Their board of directors had no independent members and was full of health care workers that had little or no experience in finance. They failed to adequately comprehend the risk implications of the things their management team was doing until it was too late to catch.

Thanks again for the time and detail. It gets back into the piece of any enterprise being susceptible to poor management/structure, I suppose.

There has to be a balance between people in the top positions being able to navigate a world that is dominated by capitalist finance and also being amenable to the reasonable worker demands. After all, it’s still a business and needs to make money for workers to receive any sort of benefit from the co-op to begin with.

End of the day, I want people to be able to at least imagine a better world. Especially when it comes to work and how we work as humans.

The Mondragon Corporation in Spain is a good example of a well-run co-op enterprise that operates at a high level. That being said, the pitfalls of operating as a worker-owned enterprise in a capitalist world still exist. That’s a problem that I don’t think anyone really has an answer to at this point.