Toxic masculinity and red pilling boys and young men

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I'm not convinced a high school curriculum actually exists anymore. I work in higher ed and so many students enter college with a crapload of college credits that I always wonder "what are they supposed to learn in high school, if this kid got to replace it all with college credits?" (and a lot of those credits don't apply to their degree, but that's an argument for another day).

It seems like we could do a hell of a lot better with the non-college bound students in our K12 schools by getting them some job training. Some school districts have students graduate high school with an associate degree. If that's a general education associate degree then I don't see a ton of value in it, but I do see value in those who don't want to go to college to be able to finish high school with a technical certificate in something or at least some sort of workplace certification.

Going back to the main topic of the thread, the majority of those who won't seek postsecondary education are going to be men and there needs to be something they can do to be productive in society, especially if automation is going to continue to eat away at manual labor type jobs.
I'll push back on this a little bit. The point of high school has never been job training, and I don't think it should be. The point of requiring education through high school is to develop kids as educated citizens of a society, not as workers. That's why the core subjects have always been some variety of math, science, English/literature, and history/civics. I have zero problem if high schools want to work in more job-focused options as electives for students. And they've always done that to an extent - shop class, home ec, etc. I think it would be fine to have a couple more classes in that regard, assuming you can find qualified instructors for them. But I don't think it's a good idea to add job training to the regular high school curriculum. Honestly if there's anything that you should consider adding to the basic high school curriculum, I would suggest basic financial literacy courses over anything job-related.

IMO the place where this sort of training is happening, and should be better advertised and utilized, is community college. I think many people think of community college generally as remedial college for people who couldn't get into a "real" college and that's not really accurate. Yes, they do (and should) have programs in more traditionally academic disciplines for kids who don't have the financial resources or grades to start at a 4-year college. But many of them offer tons of vocational training programs that result in both degrees and certificates, and often partner with employers to train for their specific needs. HVAC repair, electrical certifications, truck driving, operation and repair of advanced commercial machinery, commercial cooking, etc - these are just some of the things that most community colleges offer. These programs are generally very affordable, and through incentives could be made even more so. The trick is just erasing the stigma around "community college" that exists for many at the high school level and getting guidance counselors to advocate for it as an option. And of course, ensuring that state and local funding is significant enough to attract qualified instructors, build quality programs, and make it affordable enough for almost anyone to do.
 
I'll push back on this a little bit. The point of high school has never been job training, and I don't think it should be. The point of requiring education through high school is to develop kids as educated citizens of a society, not as workers. That's why the core subjects have always been some variety of math, science, English/literature, and history/civics. I have zero problem if high schools want to work in more job-focused options as electives for students. And they've always done that to an extent - shop class, home ec, etc. I think it would be fine to have a couple more classes in that regard, assuming you can find qualified instructors for them. But I don't think it's a good idea to add job training to the regular high school curriculum. Honestly if there's anything that you should consider adding to the basic high school curriculum, I would suggest basic financial literacy courses over anything job-related.

IMO the place where this sort of training is happening, and should be better advertised and utilized, is community college. I think many people think of community college generally as remedial college for people who couldn't get into a "real" college and that's not really accurate. Yes, they do (and should) have programs in more traditionally academic disciplines for kids who don't have the financial resources or grades to start at a 4-year college. But many of them offer tons of vocational training programs that result in both degrees and certificates, and often partner with employers to train for their specific needs. HVAC repair, electrical certifications, truck driving, operation and repair of advanced commercial machinery, commercial cooking, etc - these are just some of the things that most community colleges offer. These programs are generally very affordable, and through incentives could be made even more so. The trick is just erasing the stigma around "community college" that exists for many at the high school level and getting guidance counselors to advocate for it as an option. And of course, ensuring that state and local funding is significant enough to attract qualified instructors, build quality programs, and make it affordable enough for almost anyone to do.
And what would be our plan for people who don't even go to community college?
 
IMHO—and before I say anything, let me be clear. I think feminism is a good thing. I think women having equal rights is a good thing. And I think women succeeding in places where men have traditionally ran things is a good thing.

We are living in a day and age where we are still figuring out the “equal” thing between men and women. The truth is that we were just born in a timeline where we haven’t figured it all out yet.
 
And what would be our plan for people who don't even go to community college?
Well I think everyone who graduates high school should at least consider community college (and to the extent it isn't already, it should be made affordable for pretty much everyone) but if that's not an option or a desire, you probably start in jobs that would traditionally be classified as low-skill (entry-level jobs in food service, hospitality, construction, janitorial work, landscaping, etc) and develop skills on the job that will help you work to something better. Governments at all levels can also provide job-training programs outside of the traditional academic environment.

As I said, I'm fine with high schools offering more job-adjacent electives. I just don't think replacing core subjects with work training is a good idea for high schools, or is really consistent with what their mission traditionally has been. We already have a populace that consistently demonstrates how woefully lacking it is when it comes to things like basic civics, critical thinking, and fairly simple math; we certainly don't need to deemphasize any of those things in exchange for vocational training at the high school level, IMO.
 
I'll push back on this a little bit. The point of high school has never been job training, and I don't think it should be. The point of requiring education through high school is to develop kids as educated citizens of a society, not as workers. That's why the core subjects have always been some variety of math, science, English/literature, and history/civics. I have zero problem if high schools want to work in more job-focused options as electives for students. And they've always done that to an extent - shop class, home ec, etc. I think it would be fine to have a couple more classes in that regard, assuming you can find qualified instructors for them. But I don't think it's a good idea to add job training to the regular high school curriculum. Honestly if there's anything that you should consider adding to the basic high school curriculum, I would suggest basic financial literacy courses over anything job-related.

IMO the place where this sort of training is happening, and should be better advertised and utilized, is community college. I think many people think of community college generally as remedial college for people who couldn't get into a "real" college and that's not really accurate. Yes, they do (and should) have programs in more traditionally academic disciplines for kids who don't have the financial resources or grades to start at a 4-year college. But many of them offer tons of vocational training programs that result in both degrees and certificates, and often partner with employers to train for their specific needs. HVAC repair, electrical certifications, truck driving, operation and repair of advanced commercial machinery, commercial cooking, etc - these are just some of the things that most community colleges offer. These programs are generally very affordable, and through incentives could be made even more so. The trick is just erasing the stigma around "community college" that exists for many at the high school level and getting guidance counselors to advocate for it as an option. And of course, ensuring that state and local funding is significant enough to attract qualified instructors, build quality programs, and make it affordable enough for almost anyone to do.
I agree with you. I would add that in addition to basic finance, high schools also teach debate and logic.

Also agree about community College, but I also believe that trades need good apprenticeship programs.

My dad taught HVAC at a for profit school for a couple of years. While he knew the materials he wasn't a good teacher. He had never been trained in the art of teaching. The other teachers were all similar. The people in those classes were wasting a ton of money for a certification and very little knowledge.
 
And what would be our plan for people who don't even go to community college?
The high schools in my area have good jobs paths as well as college paths. They teach culinary arts, cosmetology, broadcast media, auto mechanics, etc. But it shouldn't be in place of the life skills.
 
Well I think everyone who graduates high school should at least consider community college (and to the extent it isn't already, it should be made affordable for pretty much everyone) but if that's not an option or a desire, you probably start in jobs that would traditionally be classified as low-skill (entry-level jobs in food service, hospitality, construction, janitorial work, landscaping, etc) and develop skills on the job that will help you work to something better. Governments at all levels can also provide job-training programs outside of the traditional academic environment.

As I said, I'm fine with high schools offering more job-adjacent electives. I just don't think replacing core subjects with work training is a good idea for high schools, or is really consistent with what their mission traditionally has been. We already have a populace that consistently demonstrates how woefully lacking it is when it comes to things like basic civics, critical thinking, and fairly simple math; we certainly don't need to deemphasize any of those things in exchange for vocational training at the high school level, IMO.
I’d like to see a path for HS graduates to work for a couple years, either for non-profits or even some for-profit enterprises in underserved areas in the US or abroad, and earn monetary credits that could be applied to college (2 or 4 year programs) or trade school. I think a lot of kids just aren’t ready for a commitment like college. It’s tough to know with certainty what you want to do with your life at 18 and investing the time and money when you’re not sure is a bad bet. But putting it off for a couple years without a plan while you “figure it out” can reduce some opportunities for financial aid and creates an additional hurdle. This could be something like the GI bill for non-military service.
 
IMHO—and before I say anything, let me be clear. I think feminism is a good thing. I think women having equal rights is a good thing. And I think women succeeding in places where men have traditionally ran things is a good thing.

We are living in a day and age where we are still figuring out the “equal” thing between men and women. The truth is that we were just born in a timeline where we haven’t figured it all out yet.
We've made great strides as a society to be sure that little girls know they can do anything they set their minds to - that they can *be* anything they want to be - that there's no wrong way to be a girl and that girls are awesome and powerful and capable.

I don't know why we don't seem to emphasize the same things to little boys.
 
IMHO—and before I say anything, let me be clear. I think feminism is a good thing. I think women having equal rights is a good thing. And I think women succeeding in places where men have traditionally ran things is a good thing.

We are living in a day and age where we are still figuring out the “equal” thing between men and women. The truth is that we were just born in a timeline where we haven’t figured it all out yet.
With so many differences, it might make sense to have boys classes and girls classes until a certain age. To teach using more focused methodologies for each.
 
Well I think everyone who graduates high school should at least consider community college (and to the extent it isn't already, it should be made affordable for pretty much everyone) but if that's not an option or a desire, you probably start in jobs that would traditionally be classified as low-skill (entry-level jobs in food service, hospitality, construction, janitorial work, landscaping, etc) and develop skills on the job that will help you work to something better. Governments at all levels can also provide job-training programs outside of the traditional academic environment.

As I said, I'm fine with high schools offering more job-adjacent electives. I just don't think replacing core subjects with work training is a good idea for high schools, or is really consistent with what their mission traditionally has been. We already have a populace that consistently demonstrates how woefully lacking it is when it comes to things like basic civics, critical thinking, and fairly simple math; we certainly don't need to deemphasize any of those things in exchange for vocational training at the high school level, IMO.
I think we mostly agree with what SHOULD be taught in high school. I just know that post secondary training for all will never happen so we do need some path to making a living for those who go into the workforce straight out of high school. I wish there were more apprenticeship opportunities in this country but employers don’t want to teach skills when they can potentially hire already trained workers.

Community colleges fill a great role. I worked at one for 10 years. But as long as it costs money and an investment of time, there’s going to be a lot of people who just won’t do it.
 

Out today in Politico by Richard Reeves, the author of “Of Boys and Men” discussed earlier in the thread.
 

Out today in Politico by Richard Reeves, the author of “Of Boys and Men” discussed earlier in the thread.
I read that piece. It's got some interesting ideas, but also I have many questions.

1. First, I just don't see the connection between these concerns and my son's male friends, all of whom are at prestigious colleges studying engineering or science but some of whom hold antediluvian views on gender. One of my friends -- a PhD from Princeton -- has a son who got into Andrew Tate. Obviously these are anecdotes but they aren't limited. There's sexist and misogynist behavior in law schools. There are professors who have these views. I just can't see "economic opportunity" as a complete theory because it just doesn't describe what I see. Maybe my diagnosis of sexual and social insecurity isn't quite right, but it at least tries to explain some of this behavior.

2. But anyway, let's take the article at face value. Reeves says to expand vocational and trades offering in schools, and to have more apprenticeships. Fine. Why is this a solution to help men? Can't there be women plumbers? There can be, but I've never seen one. It's a male dominated field. That strikes me as part of the problem, not part of the solution. Making it easier for men to have low-status jobs doesn't seem like a recipe for improving male happiness. I think you'd have to do something to raise the status of those jobs -- and now we're in the realm of culture, which the article wants to avoid. If we have some magic power to make people give greater respect to plumbers or sanitation workers, why not just use it to make me respect women?

3. Increase the share of male mental health professionals, says Reeves. Fine. How do you do that? He says policy makers should encourage men to enter these fields with loan forgiveness and scholarships -- which I suppose might be a solution if it weren't patently illegal. You can't have a government policy to forgive men's loans if they become psychiatrists. [This is generally a problem with his whole piece. A lot of his solutions are not constitutional].

But anyway, why are mental health professionals mostly women? There are a number of reasons. First, there are considerably more female patients. Eating disorders, low self-esteem, self-harm, personality disorders -- these are more common among women, and women are more likely to get help for them because they sort of have to. If you self-harm and have to go to the hospital, you're coming home with a psychiatric appointment and probably some meds. And a lot of therapists choose their careers because of positive experiences in therapy.

Second, mental health patients are often exceedingly difficult to work with. Dealing with hard-to-deal-with people is a task that our society codes as female, which is so many women work in customer service, customer service automated voices are usually female, etc. It's probably because infants are also hard to deal with, and moms usually get stuck with that job more often than men (and not always for bad reasons; for instance, often the whiny infants wants something that only comes from mom's breasts).

The techniques of the job are also coded female. Therapists and psychiatrists have to use empathy; that's a female coded skill in our society. They have to listen, which codes the same way. They have to be used to people explaining to them the same things over and over again.

So what are we even talking about here? And the same goes for elementary school teachers. Sure, it would be great to have more of them. But I would argue we can't get there until we reform gender norms, and if we're assuming we can do that, why not just reform gender norms to eliminate toxic masculinity instead of going about it in a circuitous fashion.

4. I guess my main objection is that the author is accepting the division of the world into men's and women's distinct spheres. That's the gist of all of the policy proposals. And I can respect that choice from a policy maker, given that policy makers --wanting to make a real difference in the world -- usually have to accept the world as it presents to them, at least to some extent. So I'm not slamming on Richard Reeves here.

At the same time, isn't that division causing a lot of the problems? When we accept that men do shop and women are better at socializing, we create what I've seen described as the "male influencer problem" -- namely, that there are few men who make money from social media in the "influencer" game (unless you count gaming streams as influencing, which it kind of is but not in the same way). And that's in part because the main quality people look for in an influencer is optimism and physical attractiveness. It's why most models are women, and indeed why the word model connotes femininity (men who model are typically called 'male models,' in an inversion of 'lady doctor' rhetoric). Well, guess what? Influencing sure seems like easy money. I have no idea how hard people have to work to go viral, but the finished product seems like it's super easy and fun. And it's a girl thing mostly.

So if we divide up the world into plumbers on one hand and influencers on the other -- and remember, for young people, influencers are a part of life in a way they aren't for us old folks, the same way that long-haired musicians were a part of life for the Boomers but not their parents -- that just doesn't seem like a good deal for men. And I would argue that it's especially noxious because it focuses male resentment on feminine traits and thus gender dynamics. Men complain -- gee I wish I could be a model or a cheerleader instead of a grunt in the trenches or standing knee deep in sewage, but alas I don't have boobs and blonde hair, and worse, those same women who depend on me to fix their pipes, homes, cars, etc look down on me, would never date me, and generally don't even see me. The next step, "they are all bitches," is not a big leap.
 
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