Toxic masculinity and red pilling boys and young men

[superrific]

Yeah, I guess it’s also all these violent video games too. Come on man.

Come on, how? Attitudes aren't formed by culture? That's strange. Do you also think the same thing about minstrel shows? Were they entirely epiphenomenal, or did they have the effect of transmitting stereotypes about black people that, when consumed, tended to reinforce prevalent attitudes about race?

I don't know how someone could a) think that Hollywood depictions of black people were harmful; and b) not think that the depiction of women in hip-hop is not harmful. Maybe you think the former is also epiphenomenal? That it doesn't really matter when there's an amazing action movie happening at the top of a huge office building while a black guy named Argyle is chilling in his limo in the basement? And Die Hard even gets a little credit for making the baddies' tech wiz a black guy (I don't know if I had seen that before).

 

[finesse]

Those are two of the groups that have a strong aggressive male image and strongly threatened by the move toward equality. I didn't bother to look but you might see that move with Muslim males.

 

[superrific]

Just because macroeconomic factors look good doesn’t mean people aren’t struggling. Rent is fucking expensive and price increases are outpacing wage growth. I think it’s arrogant to say that people aren’t really concerned about the economy.

How do you explain Trump’s growing appeal to Hispanics and Black men without the financial piece?

Non-college black men are notoriously unsupportive of gay rights. Hispanics as well, to a lesser extent. We've been experiencing a nationwide gay panic. Connect the dots.

Economic opportunities aren't worse for young black men today than they were 15 years ago. But they weren't out there voting for Romney or Bush. Trump did better even in 2016 with black men than any Republican candidate for quite some time, IIRC. He was also running against a woman. Hmm.

 

[superrific]

Which gets us back to the need for different kinds of male role models and what it means to be masculine.

Didn't you just ridicule this very idea like two posts ago? Come on, man.

 

[superrific]

Where?

"Yeah, I guess it’s also all these violent video games too. Come on man."

 

[superrific]

I fail to see what that has to do with male role models.

You fail to see what hip-hop has to do with male role models? This is becoming a strange jumping-the-shark moment.

Other than family members, entertainers (including athletes) have long been primary role models for young people. I mean, this is so obvious a point that I'm baffled as to why I am having to assert it.

 

[superrific]

It depends on whether you think culture drives who becomes popular figures or vice versa. I’m more inclined to think that the culture causes figures to emerge who align with that culture. Not that male rappers are driving the toxic masculinity imbedded within the culture.

It’s pretty easy to figure out which came first in this chicken/egg situation.

Sigh. First, it's not pretty easy to figure that out. More importantly, though, it's a feedback loop. Let's suppose you're right about the chicken and the egg. Fine, but today's chickens are still laying eggs, you know?

I'm not going to have this argument. I find your position mind-boggling and contradicted by, well, everything about our culture. I'll just say that if your position is correct, we don't have to worry about Andrew Tate or Jordan Peterson. They are just symptoms.

 

[Ddseddse]

We should also mention hip-hop, which absolutely is global and also full of sexism and misogyny (not all of it, of course).

I admire hip-hop. I'm not a huge fan; I dig Public Enemy and Rakim and the occasional De La Soul, but I can't listen to it for a long time without getting bored. But how can you not respect what it represents? Punk often gets credit for being DIY, but hip-hop was even more so. Rock, which was originally black, was becoming super-white by the 1970s. Motown had hit the mainstream, but that was the primary opportunity for black artists and it's not infinitely deep. There was also funk, but by the end of the 1970s, funk had developed big barriers to entry. Not every Kool kid had a Gang, and trying to compete with P-Funk was just impossible. So the early rappers took those funk beats and riffs, and put something different on top. It's marvelous and a testament to artistic spirit.

But we can't ignore the gender assumptions and roles built into the genre. Explaining that is for another thread. I think it's fair to say, though, that hip-hop has amplified certain types of messages in ways that were not possible two generations ago.

I was not going to post this video in the covers thread due to how wildly problematic it is, but it sure checks a lot of boxes in this thread.

Punk? Check.
Hip-hop? Check.
Gender Assumptions? Check.
Misogyny and Toxic Masculinity. Check - but with the caveat this is early enough in the cycle where it was still OK to show some level of vulnerability in your disaffection. Showing any sign of vulnerability is verboten in today's toxic masculinity circles.
Gaming culture? Check.
Racism? Check.
Soy Boy Trope? Check.

Released a solid decade ago. I think it could be taught in a seminar on the origins of toxic masculinity.

Lot going on in this video [NSFW - lotta F-bombs]...

 

[superrific]

I was not going to post this video in the covers thread due to how wildly problematic it is, but it sure checks a lot of boxes in this thread.

Punk? Check.
Hip-hop? Check.
Gender Assumptions? Check.
Misogyny and Toxic Masculinity. Check - but with the caveat this is early enough in the cycle where it was still OK to show some level of vulnerability in your disaffection. Showing any sign of vulnerability is verboten in today's toxic masculinity circles.
Gaming culture? Check.
Racism? Check.
Soy Boy Trope? Check.

Released a solid decade ago. I think it could be taught in a seminar on toxic masculinity.

Lot going on in this video [NSFW - lotta F-bombs]...

Oh, man, I love that track. Do you know the history? It's a cover of an old Suicidal Tendencies song. The whole point is that the narrator is fucking crazy, hence the title institutionalized. I don't know if that message comes across to everyone, but that's the backstory. The anecdotes told in this song mirror the ones told in the original.

I suppose you could say that the humor is punching down, but I don't think that's the spirit of the song. It's ironic. The narrator is complaining that he is seen as crazy, when actually it's everyone else who is crazy -- but actually, actually, it's him.

 

[Ddseddse]

Oh, man, I love that track. Do you know the history? It's a cover of an old Suicidal Tendencies song. The whole point is that the narrator is fucking crazy, hence the title institutionalized. I don't know if that message comes across to everyone, but that's the backstory. The anecdotes told in this song mirror the ones told in the original.

I suppose you could say that the humor is punching down, but I don't think that's the spirit of the song. It's ironic. The narrator is complaining that he is seen as crazy, when actually it's everyone else who is crazy -- but actually, actually, it's him.

I saw Suicidal Tendencies do it live in 86 at the Eutah Clubhouse in Baltimore. I was black and blue for days. I regularly hung out at the Eutah Clubhouse and have the tinnitus to prove it.

I am 100% with you regarding the message of the song (even in this version), but we're also dealing with the Dave Chappelle problem, It's not how the message is intended. It's how it is received.

I too, love that song. And musically speaking, the version I posted is phenomenal. The lyrics and video are, however, objectively problematic, sadly.

 

[hedge]

I too, love that song. And musically speaking, the version I posted is phenomenal. The lyrics and video are, however, objectively problematic, sadly.

Damn, that version might be better than the original but that may be partially b/c I've grown to regard Ice T more as Fin from Special Victims Unit than as an OG gangster rapper and it's funny seeing Fin go off like that...

 

[superrific]

I saw Suicidal Tendencies do it live in 86 at the Eutah Clubhouse in Baltimore. I was black and blue for days. I regularly hung out at the Eutah Clubhouse and have the tinnitus to prove it.

I am 100% with you regarding the message of the song (even in this version), but we're also dealing with the Dave Chappelle problem, It's not how the message is intended. It's how it is received.

I too, love that song. And musically speaking, the version I posted is phenomenal. The lyrics and video are, however, objectively problematic, sadly.

All right, fair enough. I didn't mean to imply that you were ignorant; only that early Suicidal was not exactly popular. My guess is that the vast majority of people your age are unaware of the original. Obviously, you know very well. Probably better than me -- I was never into Suicidal.

And I can see your point about the reception, as opposed to the intent. That is an important consideration. On the other hand, I suspect that the vast majority of people watching it are in on the joke. It wasn't, to my knowledge, a big hit or anything. Ice-T has said that the main reason he does Body Count is to help our his childhood friend who plays guitar on these tracks.

 

[superrific]

Damn, that version might be better than the original but that may be partially b/c I've grown to regard Ice T more as Fin from Special Victims Unit than as an OG gangster rapper and it's funny seeing Fin go off like that...

I think it's better, considerably. I mean, why wouldn't it be? The original was recorded DIY, by a band of teenagers, unskilled at music at the time, in the early days of crossover punk/metal. As long as the cover stays faithful to the spirit of the original, it should be an improvement. And I'd say hell yeah, it stays faithful to the original. It's not a sellout at all.

 

[Ddseddse]

I think it's better, considerably. I mean, why wouldn't it be?

Because it doesn't have the line "All I really wanted was a Pepsi... but she wouldn't give it to me!!!!" in it!

I kid, I kid.

 

[ChileG]

These young men are facing real issues. I don’t think telling them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps is going to help, personally. In the same way that we have tried to level the playing field in employment for women, we have to start looking at what structures in society may be disadvantaging men, especially young men.

It’s clear that young men and boys are disadvantaged in the education system. It’s not because they just aren’t trying hard enough. We know that boys develop slower than girls, yet we start them at the same time in school and expect them to progress at the same rate. No wonder so many young boys are diagnosed with developmental delays, ADHD, etc. at that age.

There have been proposals to start boys a year later in school. There are steps we can take to fix this gap that has emerged in education. Just like we shouldn’t have told girls to just work harder to get a job in a market that they’re disadvantaged in, we can’t just tell boys to work harder. There are actual structures causing these issues, so let’s fix them.

My wife used to teach TK (now AD in the office) and advised a LOT of parents (not all) to keep their sons back a year (we did with our son). Some took her advice, some did not.
She said no parent who held their son back a year for TK ever said they regretted that decision, but a lot of parents regretted not taking her advice.

 

[superrific]

Because it doesn't have the line "All I really wanted was a Pepsi... but she wouldn't give it to me!!!!" in it!

I kid, I kid.

Just one Pepsi!

Seriously, I get your point and I was thinking about it a bit more just now. I agree that some of the stereotyping in the video is really unnecessary. I actually don't mind soy boy. You kind of need the vegan guy to look like that, to make the humor work. There's really no reason to make the call center guy Indian, though in fairness there's one line to that effect but it doesn't go any further. Nothing else about that guy has anything to do with ethnicity. And the imagery of the wife is maybe over the top. It obviously serves the purpose, which is that Ice-T obviously doesn't give a fuck about her, but I guess it didn't have to go that far.

I also like the lyric, "Oprah ain't got no man," although it's a bit of a guilty pleasure. It shouldn't be funny.

 

[UNCatTech]

Just because macroeconomic factors look good doesn’t mean people aren’t struggling. Rent is fucking expensive and price increases are outpacing wage growth. I think it’s arrogant to say that people aren’t really concerned about the economy.

How do you explain Trump’s growing appeal to Hispanics and Black men without the financial piece?

I do not understand trumps appeal with Hispanics or Black men as he's pretty clear that he doesn't care for them and if they happen to be undocumented, then he wants to deport them.

The thing with the economy, as with most things, it may not be the worst in the world but when it's your problems they are your worst problem.

I've been listening to a podcast about financial psychology. The host interviews and tries to help people to understand their beliefs and why they are the way they are with money. It's eye opening to hear people talk about this, but one thing that's common for most of them, so far, is the biggest problem is their understanding of money, how money impacts their lives, and why they are the way they are with money.

Listening to this is also humbling and reminds me that I am very fortunate. Yes, I've had challenges and struggles, but I'm in a good place.
Part of why I believe as I do now is because of the help that I received over the years when I was struggling.

 

[gregh1]

I think this has been a very interesting thread. Lots of good arguments around causes vs results vs correlations.

The "People are not as comfortable talking to other people any more" from @rodoheel really jumps out to me as a key impacting sex issues (which makes sense to me) as well as economic-distress (or resentments which impact male-dominated society a little differently) and gender-aspirations/pressures. It's just too easy to wander into echo-chambers, wander onto disinfo, then your tribal bias is less about your local community, rather some faceless online monoculture.

But would this be happening even without social media or kids being so online? Since "Sex and the City", there is a new objectification of men... but would it be a problem?

Paine mentioned this being an international phenomena, does it go beyond US and UK?

 

[Calheel]

I think this has been a very interesting thread. Lots of good arguments around causes vs results vs correlations.

The "People are not as comfortable talking to other people any more" from @rodoheel really jumps out to me as a key impacting sex issues (which makes sense to me) as well as economic-distress (or resentments which impact male-dominated society a little differently) and gender-aspirations/pressures. It's just too easy to wander into echo-chambers, wander onto disinfo, then your tribal bias is less about your local community, rather some faceless online monoculture.

But would this be happening even without social media or kids being so online? Since "Sex and the City", there is a new objectification of men... but would it be a problem?

Paine mentioned this being an international phenomena, does it go beyond US and UK?

Yes, Asian countries especially.

 

[UNCatTech]

I was not going to post this video in the covers thread due to how wildly problematic it is, but it sure checks a lot of boxes in this thread.

Punk? Check.
Hip-hop? Check.
Gender Assumptions? Check.
Misogyny and Toxic Masculinity. Check - but with the caveat this is early enough in the cycle where it was still OK to show some level of vulnerability in your disaffection. Showing any sign of vulnerability is verboten in today's toxic masculinity circles.
Gaming culture? Check.
Racism? Check.
Soy Boy Trope? Check.

Released a solid decade ago. I think it could be taught in a seminar on the origins of toxic masculinity.

Lot going on in this video [NSFW - lotta F-bombs]...

You guys need to add this to the music thread.

First time I had ever heard that. It's interesting.

I like that his chair has written on the back: "Ice Motherfucking T".

Also, isn't that his wife? Damn...