Trump / Musk (other than DOGE)

[Callatoroy]

What is your definition? Same question for lawtig.

Are you trying to facilitate some type of debate as to whether the republican party or democratic party more closely represents political conservatism? not sure what the goal is? Who represents the parties? ZZL posters?

 

[farce©]

I am missing the joke(??)

Not to dismiss the tasteless attempt at humor, but I believe OGtruthurts was responding to callatoroy’s comment “Then you don't know what the definition of political conservative is.” which Kingpin had quoted in the previous post.

 

[lawtig02]

“I am obliged to confess I should sooner live in a society governed by the first two thousand names in the Boston telephone directory than in a society governed by the two thousand faculty members of Harvard University.”
— William F. Buckley, National Review Mission Statement, November 19, 1955

“A conservative is someone who stands athwart history, yelling Stop, at a time when no one is inclined to do so, or to have much patience with those who so urge it.”
― William F. Buckley

Those are interesting quotes, since I have thought many, many times that I would gladly vote for a random person drawn from the 315 million Americans to be our president over Donald Trump.

 

[lawtig02]

Are you trying to facilitate some type of debate as to whether the republican party or democratic party more closely represents political conservatism? not sure what the goal is? Who represents the parties? ZZL posters?

I think he’s just asking you to define what it means to be a conservative. Maybe that’s hard after the enormous expansion and consolidated of federal power, at the expense of personal liberties, that has happened over the last couple of days?

 

[hedge]

Those are interesting quotes, since I have thought many, many times that I would gladly vote for a random person drawn from the 315 million Americans to be our president over Donald Trump.

Yep, it comes across as very populist...

 

[lawtig02]

I think he’s just asking you to define what it means to be a conservative. Maybe that’s hard after the enormous expansion and consolidated of federal power, at the expense of personal liberties, that has happened over the last couple of days?

By the way, I still think you’re much smarter than the typical right winger who posts here. At some point soon, you’re going to snap out of it and realize what an absolute shitshow you’ve been JCDing.

 

[chrissteel]

 

[Callatoroy]

Those are interesting quotes, since I have thought many, many times that I would gladly vote for a random person drawn from the 315 million Americans to be our president over Donald Trump.

I'm genuinely perplexed by your change in my perceived level of radicalization of your comments about trump over the last several months (since the election). Is it you hate the man? You hate his agenda? You hate both? Do you hate the man more than the agenda or vice versa? While your comments gave a clear picture that you didn't like trump, they were far more tame. Did you believe kamala was going to win and you wouldn't be faced with the current reality? There could be discussion without it getting sidetracked by trump hatred. He didn't get between the differences on policy.

 

[StrangePackage]

I'm pretty comfortable saying anyone who is defending Elon's Nazi salute is a shit human.

If that was accidental or unintentional, then my fist connecting with their face would likewise be excused, yes?

And before anyone tries to equivocate on the issue of harm, a Nazi salute is a threat of violence, because Nazism is state violence against disfavored minorities on a massive scale. Point blank, that is what a Nazi salute means - "I will kill people given the chance."

 

[SnoopRob]

By the way, I still think you’re much smarter than the typical right winger who posts here. At some point soon, you’re going to snap out of it and realize what an absolute shitshow you’ve been JCDing.

Someday I'm going to give a compliment like that and quote my own post to do it.

 

[lawtig02]

I'm genuinely perplexed by your change in my perceived level of radicalization of your comments about trump over the last several months (since the election). Is it you hate the man? You hate his agenda? You hate both? Do you hate the man more than the agenda or vice versa? While your comments gave a clear picture that you didn't like trump, they were far more tame. Did you believe kamala was going to win and you wouldn't be faced with the current reality? There could be discussion without it getting sidetracked by trump hatred. He didn't get between the differences on policy.

1. I have thought Trump is one of the worst humans on the face of the planet since long before he was a serious candidate for president. I see him as the absolute antithesis of everything my faith teaches me is desirable. Or, to bring it closer to home, he’s the opposite of what I want my son to be.

2. Trump is BY FAR the biggest reason I left the Republican Party. I literally cannot imagine supporting a party that embraces him.

3. There is no conservative “agenda” being discussed in the US today. MAGA is about as far from conservative as you can get. It’s at the place where anarchism, religious nationalism, and fascism meet. Dems have embraced a lot of conservatism, but there’s no true conservative policy discussion to be had. And that’s almost entirely because Trump has hijacked it.

 

[sringwal]

Are you trying to facilitate some type of debate as to whether the republican party or democratic party more closely represents political conservatism? not sure what the goal is? Who represents the parties? ZZL posters?

You accused lawtig, a life-long conservative, and a Republican until Trump, of not understanding what conservatism is.

It strikes me as only fair that you either offer up your definition or, after he gave his definition, which he has, of explaining what, about his definition, is incorrect.

In order for us to function as a society, or at least as a message board, we should all understand what each other means when they use terminology, even if we disagree about those definitions.

 

[Calheel]

Why? According to trump, China, with 1.4 billion people pays $39 million and the US with 325 million people pays $500 million. If true do you think that’s equitable?

Wait. So now we are doing this based on population rather than GDP? But for NATO we need to base it on GDP for it to be fair? Pick a lane.

 

[BlooVooDoo]

IMO, the issue is that Musk’s gesture and that of Laura Ingraham a few years ago, are the kind of thing that anyone who abhors what Hitler and Nazis stood for would avoid like an elevator full of lepers. This isn’t an oops like pointing with a single finger which may offend some cultures with which you are unfamiliar. This is a gesture synonymous with the most hateful movement in the West post enlightenment. If you have grown up in Europe or North America you cannot be unaware of what that salute is. If you can complete the gesture well enough for it to be confused as such, you’re obviously not too concerned with casually being mistaken for the sort that would commit genocide. How is that supposed to be a mitigating factor? I’m not a nazi, I just can’t be bothered to avoid looking like one.

 

[sringwal]

I will also add that I think part of the disconnect in the conversation is the assumption that many of us only started hating Trump when he first ran for president.

Personally, I have felt like he represented the worst part of America since the days on Lifestyles of The Rich and Famous in the late 1980s. I was a small child at the time, but it was apparent then who he was, and everything he has done since then has only cemented the view I forms of him at the time.

I have said it before, but he has always struck me as a Mark Twain caricature come to life, 150 years later. He and Musk are essentially the Duke and the King made flesh.

 

[EyeballKid]

IMO, the issue is that Musk’s gesture, and that of Laura Ingraham a few years ago, are the kind of thing that anyone who abhors what Hitler and Nazis stood for would avoid like an elevator full of lepers. This isn’t an oops like pointing with a single finger which may offend some cultures with which you are unfamiliar. This is a gesture synonymous with the most hateful movement in the West post enlightenment. If you have grown up in Europe or North America you cannot be unaware of what that salute is. If you can complete the gesture well enough for it to be confused as such, you’re obviously not too concerned with casually being mistaken for the sort that would commit genocide. How is that supposed to be a mitigating factor? I’m not a nazi, I just can’t be bothered to avoid looking like one.

Well yeah.

When added to the facts that Musk has cultivated an alt-right, white supremacist, neo-Nazi friendly environment on X, has trolled hard by reposting and spreading misinformation from alt-right neo-Nazis, and has come out in favor of the neo-Nazi friendly party in Germany, it’s entirely disingenuous to try to make it seem like this was just an innocent mistake by a socially awkward guy.

 

[farce©]

I'm genuinely perplexed by your change in my perceived level of radicalization of your comments about trump over the last several months (since the election). Is it you hate the man? You hate his agenda? You hate both? Do you hate the man more than the agenda or vice versa? While your comments gave a clear picture that you didn't like trump, they were far more tame. Did you believe kamala was going to win and you wouldn't be faced with the current reality? There could be discussion without it getting sidetracked by trump hatred. He didn't get between the differences on policy.

That’s not a bad question (although it wasn’t directed at me.)

I have loathed the man since I lived in NY in the early 80’s and he was pretty much a joke around the city (he was a foil for Howard Stern and Grayson Carter was dubbing him a “short-fingered vulgarian.”) The notion that this buffoon would someday be serious political figure was (and still is) absurd.

His agenda is cruelty. His primary goal seems to be to annoy and frustrate people who disagree with him. He appoints people who are wholly unfit for their jobs. He is bent on destroying the institutions and systems that make our government work because they stand between him and his goal of using his position to personally enrich himself. He derailed a bipartisan immigration bill for political expediency. He doesn’t want immigration reform, he wants immigration elimination (or at least he did until Elon Musk, another wholly despicable human being, convinced him that bringing in substantially more degreed tech workers without typical workplace safeguards and professional mobility would be beneficial to Musk and his buddies.) Remember when he was going to introduce his replacement plan for Obamacare? How about when he was going to release his tax returns as soon as his audit was completed? Now he has a hare-brained idea that tariffs are the solution to all the economic problems of the country.

In other words I hate his lack of agenda, he just has a jigsaw puzzle of unconnected dots that he hopes somebody smarter than him can develop into policy. His agenda is grievance and retribution. Gulf of America? His agenda is trolling.

I hope that one day you figure it out like so many other conservatives/former Republicans who post here have done over the past ten years.

 

[Callatoroy]

1. I have thought Trump is one of the worst humans on the face of the planet since long before he was a serious candidate for president. I see him as the absolute antithesis of everything my faith teaches me is desirable. Or, to bring it closer to home, he’s the opposite of what I want my son to be.

2. Trump is BY FAR the biggest reason I left the Republican Party. I literally cannot imagine supporting a party that embraces him.

3. There is no conservative policy being discussed in the US today. MAGA is about as far from conservative as you can get. It’s basically anarchistic. Dems have embraced a lot of conservatism, but there’s no true conservative policy discussion to be had. And that’s almost entirely because Trump has hijacked it.

Fair enough. I'm not questioning your opinions and respect your views as you stated them. I believe for whatever reason you are sincere and am in no way attempting to change your opinions.

1. we are in complete agreement. I want my sons to be the opposite of trump.

2. I gave up on my naive belief that character mattered for potus during the Clinton years. It was difficult for me and I fought it but it seemingly didn't matter to others so I learned to accept it and focus way more on what the candidate was planning to do vs the candidate. I'm not saying i'm right and you are wrong. Just that I had to look at what direction I thought was right for the country and nothing else. Would I like to have a potus with Carter's ethics and decency? Certainly but I don't think we have had that since W (and I struggle with the idea he knew there were no WMD in iraq.) That is a debate for another thread.

3. We view MAGA differently. I see it as the most radical supporters (10% of his votes). I see the rest as people like me who see him for what he is but see it as the vehicle to restore what's important to me (us). I view conservatism in terms of real world issues. Not broad terms that can be manipulated or applied to any argument. I don't see that trump has hijacked any of the conservative issues that seemed important in the election.

These comments weren't intended to debate. You gave me a foundation for what you believe and I did the same. Understanding why someone believes what they do is generally helpful.

 

[lawtig02]

I will also add that I think part of the disconnect in the conversation is the assumption that many of us only started hating Trump when he first ran for president.

Personally, I have felt like he represented the worst part of America since the days on Lifestyles of The Rich and Famous in the late 1980s. I was a small child at the time, but it was apparent then who he was, and everything he has done since then has only cemented the view I forms of him at the time.

I have said it before, but he has always struck me as a Mark Twain caricature come to life, 150 years later. He and Musk are essentially the Duke and the King made flesh.

Agree completely. And I’ll just add, conservative Christianity’s embrace and absorption of Trump has been the most horrifying and infuriating experience of my adult life. I had started to move away from you before, but how DARE you embrace a man who is the exact opposite of everything you preached to me that I should be and do. May endless shame be heaped on the heads of those who call themselves Christian, but support this man who nails Jesus to the cross a thousand times every day.

 

[lawtig02]

Fair enough. I'm not questioning your opinions and respect your views as you stated them. I believe for whatever reason you are sincere and am in no way attempting to change your opinions.

1. we are in complete agreement. I want my sons to be the opposite of trump.

2. I gave up on my naive belief that character mattered for potus during the Clinton years. It was difficult for me and I fought it but it seemingly didn't matter to others so I learned to accept it and focus way more on what the candidate was planning to do vs the candidate. I'm not saying i'm right and you are wrong. Just that I had to look at what direction I thought was right for the country and nothing else. Would I like to have a potus with Carter's ethics and decency? Certainly but I don't think we have had that since W (and I struggle with the idea he knew there were no WMD in iraq.) That is a debate for another thread.

3. We view MAGA differently. I see it as the most radical supporters (10% of his votes). I see the rest as people like me who see him for what he is but see it as the vehicle to restore what's important to me (us). I view conservatism in terms of real world issues. Not broad terms that can be manipulated or applied to any argument. I don't see that trump has hijacked any of the conservative issues that seemed important in the election.

These comments weren't intended to debate. You gave me a foundation for what you believe and I did the same. Understanding why someone believes what they do is generally helpful.

I’m sure we would get along well offline. I see Trump as falling into a completely different category than any other president (and trust me, I’m no Clinton stan). But I think our relevant disagreement is about whether there’s anything resembling responsible conservatism in Trump’s agenda. I don’t see it. Literally nothing. Everything he is doing is contrary to the principles that I believe lead to good governance and a healthy democracy.