Callatoroy
Iconic Member
- Messages
- 1,658
Ok, not wanting to play semantics and we might be saying the same thing. Empathy is an emotion that can drive actions/decisions, both good and bad.
Trump / Musk (other than DOGE) Omnibus Thread
- Thread starter nycfan
- Start date
- Replies: 12K
- Views: 324K
- Politics
I can buy that but I still bet that's less likely than hate, greed, fear or at least a dozen other things that are more self centered that I don't get why that would be a focus. Seems to me real empathy would push you toward the greater good.
Callatoroy
Iconic Member
- Messages
- 1,658
I was talking about empathy as outlined in sringwal's post. Depending on the individual, empathy is no stronger or weaker than any of those emotions. Based on sringwal's post I suspect empathy is one of his more dominant emotions.
sringwal
Esteemed Member
- Messages
- 662
Should be now
I agree that empathy should not be the driving force of the decision making process. Logic should be. But, yes,I do believe that empathy should be the dominant emotion, followed closely by a desire for mutual respect. I honestly can’t think of another emotion that should drive policy. Patriotism would be next on my list, as an influencer.
I absolutely empathize for republicans, as well as random voters in Nebraska. And I empathize with my family, who are hog farmers in Elizabethtown, NC. Being a teacher allows me daily insight into a number of different viewpoints and, even when I disagree with their perspectives, I empathize with their experiences.
I do, however, have a difficult time feeling empathy for Trump. I empathize with his anxiety, which I think is much higher than people realize. But beyond that, I don’t understand what it is that truly motivates him to act the way he does to empathize. That may be a failing on my part, but I am usually good at reading people and seeing the self they strive to be, rather than the self they fear they are, or the one they project on the world.
Where we disagree is on the citizen vs. non citizen part. 1) Human beings are human beings are human beings. We must show an equal amount of empathy to all. That does not mean that non-citizens deserve the same rights as citizens. They do not. What they do deserve, however, is a clearer path to citizenship. Immigration has always been a crucial part of the American identity. And, while it has at times been a lower overall percent of the population, at times it has also been higher. U.S. Immigrant Population and Share over Time, 1850-Present
I also don’t see empathy as a pie chart. It isn’t something that is limited in a way that showing it towards one group lessens showing it towards another. For example, I saw a number of people on Facebook critiquing those showing concern for people living in Los Angeles because they felt it was ignoring those who continue to suffer in Western North Carolina. Empathy isn’t a zero sum game.
Yes. There are immigrants who do horrible things. But there are also citizens who do horrible things. The consequences for doing horrible things almost certainly should be greater for immigrants than for non immigrants, particularly for those who are deliberately abusing the system.
But, the vast majority of immigrants, particularly those who are trying to gain citizenship, help make the country better just as much as citizens do - because varied experiences hold value. We should not punish those who try to do things the right way because of real, or imagined, fears about people who don’t.
If we are being honest - the constant political fighting and reversal of policy is doing far more to damage the country, and drive up the debt, than anything else.
Where you and I agree most is the need for common sense measures. Where we disagree is in the belief that this administration has those to offer.
Thank you for that response, and those follow up questions.
I agree that empathy should not be the driving force of the decision making process. Logic should be. But, yes,I do believe that empathy should be the dominant emotion, followed closely by a desire for mutual respect. I honestly can’t think of another emotion that should drive policy. Patriotism would be next on my list, as an influencer.
I absolutely empathize for republicans, as well as random voters in Nebraska. And I empathize with my family, who are hog farmers in Elizabethtown, NC. Being a teacher allows me daily insight into a number of different viewpoints and, even when I disagree with their perspectives, I empathize with their experiences.
I do, however, have a difficult time feeling empathy for Trump. I empathize with his anxiety, which I think is much higher than people realize. But beyond that, I don’t understand what it is that truly motivates him to act the way he does to empathize. That may be a failing on my part, but I am usually good at reading people and seeing the self they strive to be, rather than the self they fear they are, or the one they project on the world.
Where we disagree is on the citizen vs. non citizen part. 1) Human beings are human beings are human beings. We must show an equal amount of empathy to all. That does not mean that non-citizens deserve the same rights as citizens. They do not. What they do deserve, however, is a clearer path to citizenship. Immigration has always been a crucial part of the American identity. And, while it has at times been a lower overall percent of the population, at times it has also been higher. U.S. Immigrant Population and Share over Time, 1850-Present
I also don’t see empathy as a pie chart. It isn’t something that is limited in a way that showing it towards one group lessens showing it towards another. For example, I saw a number of people on Facebook critiquing those showing concern for people living in Los Angeles because they felt it was ignoring those who continue to suffer in Western North Carolina. Empathy isn’t a zero sum game.
Yes. There are immigrants who do horrible things. But there are also citizens who do horrible things. The consequences for doing horrible things almost certainly should be greater for immigrants than for non immigrants, particularly for those who are deliberately abusing the system.
But, the vast majority of immigrants, particularly those who are trying to gain citizenship, help make the country better just as much as citizens do - because varied experiences hold value. We should not punish those who try to do things the right way because of real, or imagined, fears about people who don’t.
If we are being honest - the constant political fighting and reversal of policy is doing far more to damage the country, and drive up the debt, than anything else.
Where you and I agree most is the need for common sense measures. Where we disagree is in the belief that this administration has those to offer.
CFordUNC
Inconceivable Member
- Messages
- 4,363
Just want to commend you and @Callatoroy for this cordial exchange. I learned a great deal from both of y'all.
sringwal
Esteemed Member
- Messages
- 662
I appreciate that. And, to be clear, I'm all for tighter borders. I believe, however, that republicans should put as much focus on improving the process for those working towards citizenship as they do to keeping people out. Not only for the best and the brightest, but also for the tired, poor, huddled masses. After all, most of us come from immigrants of some sort of another. We were all there, or someone in our family was, until they weren't.
Callatoroy
Iconic Member
- Messages
- 1,658
I completely agree that we have a moral obligation to the tired, poor, and huddled masses and would be willing to bet that you and I could craft a better immigration bill than the pubs are going to craft because we aren't owned by anyone. I have a dear friend who moved from brazil with his wife and son because his wife had been stopped by the local cops and harassed. He went to the station and lodged a complaint. Two days later while at work, his car was riddled with bullets. He left brazil and came here bringing a skill. He worked in NYC until he saved enough money to by all the tools he needed, applied for citizenship, and moved his family to Wilmington 9 years ago. During those 9 years he has traveled to NJ 9 times to meet with his immigration attorney and spent close to $40,000. Still not a citizen. At the request of his attorney I have written letter after letter on his behalf. The system is fucked up beyond belief and has to be fixed. Even after going through all that he is more patriotic towards America than many of its citizens but even he agrees there has to be a system that is followed.
superrific
Legend of ZZL
- Messages
- 5,609
this is the problem with you in a nutshell. You cannot craft a better immigration bill, because you cannot even craft a bill. You seem to have no awareness that there is a world that exists apart from you; that there are experts in that world who can do things that you cannot; that those experts usually have knowledge that you don't know even exists. There are several layers of knowledge required here and you don't have any of them, and you don't know about any of them.
The GOP has lunatic ideas, but they also know how to draft legislation. You do not.
Callatoroy
Iconic Member
- Messages
- 1,658
Eh, we could write down the important stuff and then send it to the attorneys so they could make it almost unreadable so they get to appear smart.
- Messages
- 957
And even with all of this you fail to recognize how much better your friend has it than immigrants from Mexico do. Make no mistake, your friend should be a citizen. But also make no.mistake that his treatment is 100x better than Mexican immigrants.
- Messages
- 2,167
How did he legally immigrate? Did he get on a plane and come here and overstay his visa? You don’t just show up in the US and start working legally.How many years elapsed between deciding to emigrate from Brazil until he was able to legally work in the US?
sringwal
Esteemed Member
- Messages
- 662
I could probably do that in the field of education. But that would be the limit to my koalafication, unless there was a legislation that needed to be written on the proper use of wordplay.
- Messages
- 15,225
“Pete Hegseth’s ex-wife recently gave a new statement to the FBI about the defense nominee’s alcohol use, according to two sources familiar with the matter, an issue that has become a source of controversy during his confirmation process.
Senate Armed Services Chairman Roger Wicker and the ranking Democratic member Jack Reed were briefed on Samantha Hegseth’s statement, which has not been previously reported, on January 16, two days after the committee held Pete Hegseth’s confirmation hearing, the sources said.
Wicker and Reed were initially briefed about the FBI’s background check before the confirmation hearing, according to another source familiar with the matter. Since then, the FBI has interviewed Samantha Hegseth and has included her statement in its supplemental review.
In the briefing, Wicker and Reed were told the FBI connected with Samantha Hegseth and that she gave a statement in which she discussed concerns about Pete Hegseth’s drinking. One source familiar with the statement said Samantha Hegseth told the FBI, “He drinks more often than he doesn’t.”
The source familiar noted that Samantha and Pete Hegseth have been divorced since 2017.
“There’s nothing new here and we look forward to the confirmation vote,” Tim Parlatore, Pete Hegseth’s lawyer, told CNN. …”
Senate Armed Services Chairman Roger Wicker and the ranking Democratic member Jack Reed were briefed on Samantha Hegseth’s statement, which has not been previously reported, on January 16, two days after the committee held Pete Hegseth’s confirmation hearing, the sources said.
Wicker and Reed were initially briefed about the FBI’s background check before the confirmation hearing, according to another source familiar with the matter. Since then, the FBI has interviewed Samantha Hegseth and has included her statement in its supplemental review.
In the briefing, Wicker and Reed were told the FBI connected with Samantha Hegseth and that she gave a statement in which she discussed concerns about Pete Hegseth’s drinking. One source familiar with the statement said Samantha Hegseth told the FBI, “He drinks more often than he doesn’t.”
The source familiar noted that Samantha and Pete Hegseth have been divorced since 2017.
“There’s nothing new here and we look forward to the confirmation vote,” Tim Parlatore, Pete Hegseth’s lawyer, told CNN. …”
- Messages
- 15,225
“…
More than 10,000 refugees were currently in the pipeline to travel to the United States, according to government data. They include Afghans who faced danger because of their association with the United States before the military withdrawal from Afghanistan. Among other refugees who had been approved for travel were people from Africa, Latin America and the Middle East.
The sudden halt to the flights was an agonizing blow to refugees who had been following a complicated and lengthy process to enter the country legally, resettlement group workers said. …”
- Messages
- 15,225
Continued
“… The State Department followed his order with a memo Tuesday that said “all previously scheduled travel of refugees to the United States is being canceled, and no new travel bookings will be made.”
Organizations, such as the International Rescue Committee and others that assist refugees, it noted, “should not request travel for any additional refugee cases at this time.”
On Wednesday, U.S. refugee officers in Homeland Security agencies, such as U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, were told to stop making decisions on refugee cases, according to an internal memo obtained by The New York Times.
News that the Trump administration had canceled travel even for refugees already cleared to be resettled in communities across the United States shocked the leaders of nonprofit organizations that are contracted by the State Department to assist the newcomers.
…
“Refugees go through one of the most rigorous vetting processes in the world,” she continued, “and it’s heartbreaking to see their dreams of safety derailed just days before, or in some cases, just hours before they were set to begin their new lives here.”
Eskinder Negash, president of the U.S. Committee for Refugees and Immigrants, said that “many people have been waiting for years, and in some instances decades, in refugee camps and have diligently gone through the refugee process to receive travel authorization.” …”
“… The State Department followed his order with a memo Tuesday that said “all previously scheduled travel of refugees to the United States is being canceled, and no new travel bookings will be made.”
Organizations, such as the International Rescue Committee and others that assist refugees, it noted, “should not request travel for any additional refugee cases at this time.”
On Wednesday, U.S. refugee officers in Homeland Security agencies, such as U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, were told to stop making decisions on refugee cases, according to an internal memo obtained by The New York Times.
News that the Trump administration had canceled travel even for refugees already cleared to be resettled in communities across the United States shocked the leaders of nonprofit organizations that are contracted by the State Department to assist the newcomers.
…
“Refugees go through one of the most rigorous vetting processes in the world,” she continued, “and it’s heartbreaking to see their dreams of safety derailed just days before, or in some cases, just hours before they were set to begin their new lives here.”
Eskinder Negash, president of the U.S. Committee for Refugees and Immigrants, said that “many people have been waiting for years, and in some instances decades, in refugee camps and have diligently gone through the refugee process to receive travel authorization.” …”
- Messages
- 15,225
Trump makes it official, picking the guy who was in charge on site the day Trump was a mm from being assassinated. But Curran pretty easily convinced Trump it was Biden’s fault.
Curran has no apparent management experience for a department of this size but he is an experienced secret service officer.