Trump / Musk (other than DOGE)

[nycfan]

 

[CFordUNC]

Y’all have got to stop arguing with gtyellowjacket and ZenMode. Their only purpose is to try to antagonize and annoy y’all. Don’t let them succeed. If y’all were arguing that Musk did not do a Sieg Heil, they would be going to the mat on here arguing that he did. It’s just what they do.

I don’t know whether Musk intended to do the Sieg Heil. If he did, I hope he chokes on his next meal. If he didn’t, it’s unfortunate for him that his open support of the far right Nazi-adjacent party in Germany does not earn him the benefit of the doubt in a situation like this, and hopefully he will be more thoughtful moving forward as to how his words and actions are perceived in context with his other actions.

 

[StrangePackage]

From 9 months before the salute and the endorsement of far-right German nationalist parties.

 

[altmin]

Happy Tulsi Gabbard day

Was Tulsi Gabbard In A Cult That Eats Its Leader's Toenails? Is She Still?

To be fair they could have been talking about fingernail clippings.

www.wonkette.com

 

[Healing]

Are you fucking serious?

Pathetic. Being a Nazi apologist is a weird hill to die on, but I guess it works for you

He's not a serious interlocutor, and he's very, very serious about riling you up over something as abjectly offensive and dangerous as Elon's Nazi salute.

Just a few things, then I'm not engaging further, because this is a red meat topic for our two most prominent mundane fascist whitewashers. At least Yeah openly advocates for ttump, and engages in blatant "own the libs" trolling. These other two are the most dangerous version of the "good German".

1. Per Musk's father: Musk's maternal grandparents were members of the Canadian variation of the Nazis. Not sympathizers, but Nazis. Same grandparents moved to South Africa due to alignment with the apartheid Afrikaans. The apartheid Afrikaans were amongst the most malignant group of humans in the history of civilization.
2. Musk mainstreamed Pepe the Frog, as his twitter avatar. Pepe is the symbol of the Groyper movement. The Groypers are a group of white nationalists that follow sniveling beta incel Nick Fuentes. Groypers - Wikipedia, Groyper Army and "America First"
3. Musk's salute is rapid, and rigid. His first one accompanies an aggressive countenance; it has none of the hand wave flourish or smiles/warmth of the bosiders' disingenuous comparisons.
4. Musk followed up his Nazi salute with an appearance at the AfD convention. Musk has also said the AfD is the only hope for Germany. Hmmm. Who's the AfD?
   1. Founded in 2013 as an anti-European Union party, AfD has since radicalized and become an extremist, anti-immigrant party whose aim is “to eliminate the free democratic basic order,”
   2. The German Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution (Bundesamt für Verfassungsschutz or BfV), its domestic intelligence agency which monitors extremist threats to Germany’s democracy, has listed AfD as an officially suspected extremist organization and classified its youth wing, “Young Alternative,” as extremist in April 2023. The state-level BfV offices in Saxony, Saxony-Anhalt, and Thuringia have gone a step further and classified the AfD party as a whole as extremist.
   3. Björn Höcke, leader of the AfD party in the state of Thuringia, has twice been fined by a German court for using a banned Nazi slogan. The phrase, “Everything for Germany” (“Alles für Deutschland”) was a slogan of the Nazi stormtroopers and engraved on their daggers.
   4. Alexander Gauland, an AfD co-founder, former party leader, and current Member of Parliament, has engaged in Holocaust trivialization on several occasions ... Gauland also said in 2017 that Germans should be “proud of the achievements of German soldiers in two world wars.”
   5. Höcke has engaged in extremist speech to the extent that a judge ruled that he could be described as a fascist without fear of a defamation suit, because such a description was a “value judgment based on facts.”
   6. AfD members were exposed as participants in a November 2023 secret meeting of far-right extremists in Potsdam, including Austrian neo-Nazi Martin Sellner, who discussed a mass deportation plan for foreigners and "non-assimilated" Germans, as part of AfD’s strategy should it be elected to govern Germany.
      1. If ten people are having dinner together, and one is a Nazi ...
   7. In 2017, AfD co-leader Alexander Gauland said that Aydan Özoguz, a Socialist Party politician, who was born in Germany to Turkish immigrant parents, should be “disposed of” in Turkey.
   8. Germany's AfD: How right-wing is nationalist Alternative for Germany?
      1. AfD adopted some of Pegida's anti-establishment rhetoric, such as the slogan "Lügenpresse" ("lying press"), which was used by the Nazis.
      2. The party would ban foreign funding of mosques in Germany, ban the burka (full-body veil) and the Muslim call to prayer, and put all imams through a state vetting procedure.
5. Also, ummmm, quote after quote after quote from Musk? Or retweet after retweet after retweet of white nationalist rhetoric, propaganda, and outright white nationalist accounts?

 

[gtyellowjacket]

Look. In isolation, I think we could all agree that an overexcited autistic man might do something akin to a nazi salute by accident. But, come on, he's been courting the far right party in Germany, posting a variety of white nationalist related memes on twitter (such as pepe), and making some pretty incendiary comments.

When Steve Bannon (STEVE BANNON) accuses someone of being "racist" and "truly evil," then maybe we acknowledge that that person might just be problematic. Steve Bannon condemns Elon Musk as ‘racist’ and ‘truly evil’

I think you can cherry pick for any of that.

"Look, in Isolation I think we can all agree that Tim Walz's Nazi salute might have been a wave, but he worked at a school that handed out jewish stars to freshmen and had seniors play the Gestapo. His brother is a rabid MAGA supporter. As a Congressman, he constantly voted to increase our militaristic spending and he also voted for Bush's war in Iraq. He was a Nazi apologist when a political opponent called out some fascist police state tactics in his state. He lavished praise and shared a stage multiple times with a Nazi sympathizer who posted a pro-Hitler video. Do we really want to give a guy like that the benefit of the doubt?"

I think Nazi has become the new tag like racist or communist. People are going to believe it on the flimsiest of evidence or not. Its lazy at best.

And yes to anyone that didn't get it. I read the articles and I know they are at best half truths. That's the point of the argument.

 

[sringwal]

I think you can cherry pick for any of that.

"Look, in Isolation I think we can all agree that Tim Walz's Nazi salute might have been a wave, but he worked at a school that handed out jewish stars to freshmen and had seniors play the Gestapo. His brother is a rabid MAGA supporter. As a Congressman, he constantly voted to increase our militaristic spending and he also voted for Bush's war in Iraq. He was a Nazi apologist when a political opponent called out some fascist police state tactics in his state. He lavished praise and shared a stage multiple times with a Nazi sympathizer who posted a pro-Hitler video. Do we really want to give a guy like that the benefit of the doubt?"

I think Nazi has become the new tag like racist or communist. People are going to believe it on the flimsiest of evidence or not. Its lazy at best.

And yes to anyone that didn't get it. I read the articles and I know they are at best half truths. That's the point of the argument.

I see where you are going with this. At the same time, I'm not one to throw around terms like "nazi" haphazardly, or even "white nationalist." I tend to shy away from those terms as much as possible. I agree that they are overused. And I'm not saying that Musk IS a Nazi. Far from it.

I do believe that he is someone who happens to have some terrible ideas regarding a variety of topics, including race, and I think he is deliberately trolling the left and trying to egg them on, so that he, and his supporters, can point to the left for overreacting. Because of this, I think he is normalizing some pretty abysmal behavior and perspectives.

Whether or not he, himself, is a Nazi is almost immaterial in this discussion. It's what he encourages in others that deeply concerns me.

 

[gtyellowjacket]

I see where you are going with this. At the same time, I'm not one to throw around terms like "nazi" haphazardly, or even "white nationalist." I tend to shy away from those terms as much as possible. I agree that they are overused. And I'm not saying that Musk IS a Nazi. Far from it.

I do believe that he is someone who happens to have some terrible ideas regarding a variety of topics, including race, and I think he is deliberately trolling the left and trying to egg them on, so that he, and his supporters, can point to the left for overreacting. Because of this, I think he is normalizing some pretty abysmal behavior and perspectives.

Whether or not he, himself, is a Nazi is almost immaterial in this discussion. It's what he encourages in others that deeply concerns me.

I agree he has gone off the deep end with his nonsense and does the trolling thing. I do think he legitimately sees a portion of the Democratic party that has lost its way when it comes to demonizing white males and he doesn't like it. He used to at least lean Democrat and voted for Hillary. I also think he has probably gone a bit manic maybe from some of his drug usage.

I don't think he's a Nazi sympathizer and that wave is just weak evidence of some peoples' boogeyman du jour.

 

[finesse]

I agree he has gone off the deep end with his nonsense and does the trolling thing. I do think he legitimately sees a portion of the Democratic party that has lost its way when it comes to demonizing white males and he doesn't like it. He used to at least lean Democrat and voted for Hillary. I also think he has probably gone a bit manic maybe from some of his drug usage.

I don't think he's a Nazi sympathizer and that wave is just weak evidence of some peoples' boogeyman de jour.

You have things a little backwards. At least for me, it capped all the other things he has done recently. Otherwise, I'd have put it down to this.


I dribble when I nibble
And I quibble when I scribble
Hello to you out there in Normal Land
You may not comprehend my tale or understand
As I crawl past your window give me lucky looks
You can be my body but you'll never read my books
I'm spasticus, I'm spasticus
I'm spasticus autisticus

 

[sringwal]

I agree he has gone off the deep end with his nonsense and does the trolling thing. I do think he legitimately sees a portion of the Democratic party that has lost its way when it comes to demonizing white males and he doesn't like it. He used to at least lean Democrat and voted for Hillary. I also think he has probably gone a bit manic maybe from some of his drug usage.

I don't think he's a Nazi sympathizer and that wave is just weak evidence of some peoples' boogeyman de jour.

Honestly I have a difficult time taking the "white men are the real victims" craze seriously. Welcome to a taste of how everyone else has been treated for much of the American experience. Maybe show some empathy, rather than doubling down.

 

[altmin]

Federal Employees Sue Agency Over New Email System Allegedly Linked to Elon Musk

The litigation shows concerns within the government over Musk's growing influence.

gizmodo.com

Two anonymous federal employees have sued the Office of Personnel Management (OPM), alleging that a newly circulated email system is actually linked to Elon Musk.

Last week, OPM circulated a series of unusual emails in which the agency claimed it was testing “a new capability” to contact all federal employees. Employees were encouraged to reply to the OPM emails to confirm they had received them. Amanda Scales, a former xAI employee (Musk’s company), was recently made chief of staff at OPM. The new class-action lawsuit claims that Scales and others may be helping to build a database of federal staff that could be used in the future to create contact lists for mass layoffs.

The suit is brief and doesn’t provide much evidence for its assertions other than a Reddit post, which the litigation claims is sourced from an “unknown OPM employee” who is self-described as having been an agency employee for “nearly a decade and a Federal Employee for almost 20 years.” This employee posted a message to an internal “Union chat” in the government and then proceeded to upload that same message to a public-facing subreddit.


According to claims made in that subreddit, an email server was set up inside the OPM office, in an effort to make it appear that a Musk-linked email system was actually emanating from the public office. It reads:

Our CIO, Melvin Brown, (also a non political career public servant) was pushed aside just one week into his tenure because he refused to setup email lists to send out direct communications to all career civil servants. Such communications are normally left up to each agency. Instead, an on-prem (on-site) email server was setup. Someone literally walked into our building and plugged in an email server to our network to make it appear that emails were coming from OPM. It’s been the one sending those various “test” message you’ve all seen. We think they’re building a massive email list of all federal employees to generate mass RIF notices down the road.

 

[gtyellowjacket]

Honestly I have a difficult time taking the "white men are the real victims" craze seriously. Welcome to a taste of how everyone else has been treated for much of the American experience. Maybe show some empathy, rather than doubling down.

I come from the school of two wrongs don't make a right. I can't imagine a worse way to end racism than for us to continue being racist.

 

[Calheel]

I'm not making an excuse for anyone. I'm saying all three made the same gesture, but Elon specifically said "My heart goes out to you" after doing it.

Sure, if you believe an edited video of a wave that is cutoff to make the wave look like a salute. Ok.

But most non trolls can tell the difference between a wave and a Nazi salute. One has the hand violently held our rigid in front of you and one is, ya know, a wave.

 

[sringwal]

I come from the school of two wrongs don't make a right. I can't imagine a worse way to end racism than for us to continue being racist.

Real talk - you justify a lot of "two wrongs make a right" type behavior on here (see: Elon Musk).

 

[ZenMode]

Y’all have got to stop arguing with gtyellowjacket and ZenMode. Their only purpose is to try to antagonize and annoy y’all. Don’t let them succeed. If y’all were arguing that Musk did not do a Sieg Heil, they would be going to the mat on here arguing that he did. It’s just what they do.

I don’t know whether Musk intended to do the Sieg Heil. If he did, I hope he chokes on his next meal. If he didn’t, it’s unfortunate for him that his open support of the far right Nazi-adjacent party in Germany does not earn him the benefit of the doubt in a situation like this, and hopefully he will be more thoughtful moving forward as to how his words and actions are perceived in context with his other actions.

Not really. My purpose, as it relates to the Musk situation, is to point out that assumptions of a Nazi salute are misguided. I'm not responsible if those making the assumptions are irritated by information or opinions are counter to their misguided assumptions.

IMO, the REAL issue is the complete lack of an ounce of grace given by those on the right AND left. It's not "man, that was an unfortunate motion but he DID say 'my heart goes out to you' at the end, so maybe he was just really enthusiastic." It's "yep, he's a Nazi and that was undoubtedly a Nazi salute!"

 

[finesse]

Sure, if you believe an edited video of a wave that is cutoff to make the wave look like a salute. Ok.

But most non trolls can tell the difference between a wave and a Nazi salute. One has the hand violently held our rigid in front of you and one is, ya know, a wave.

And here it is with him repeating the same "wave". It was an odd one and repeated, wouldn't you say?

 

[gtyellowjacket]

Real talk - you justify a lot of "two wrongs make a right" type behavior on here (see: Elon Musk).

Fair enough. I suppose you criticize that two wrongs make a right standard, except when it comes to racism against white guys. Our hypocrisy knows no bounds.

 

[sringwal]

Fair enough. I suppose you criticize that two wrongs make a right standard, except when it comes to racism against white guys. Our hypocrisy knows no bounds.

I don't justify the behavior, but I also don't complain about it when it happens. But, I'm absolutely a hypocrite at times. I strive not to be as much as possible, but, yeah, it happens. In this case, though, as a white male, I have very little patience for white male victimhood. If you think that makes me a hypocrite, then, so be it.

 

[gtyellowjacket]

I don't justify the behavior, but I also don't complain about it when it happens. But, I'm absolutely a hypocrite at times. I strive not to be as much as possible, but, yeah, it happens. In this case, though, as a white male, I have very little patience for white male victimhood. If you think that makes me a hypocrite, then, so be it.

I do think that is a bit hypocritical. Fortunately for you, we have a large clubhouse.

 

[sringwal]

You see, for me, it would appear much more hypocritical if I were to complain about micro-agressions against white men (particularly straight white male ones), when much greater injustices exist for, well, everyone else.