Trump / Musk (other than DOGE)

[4thgenheel]

super is right about where we are now in this country.

but i also completely understand why NYC, rock, etc. don't want this site to turn into some sort of left wing 4chan for both survival and liability reasons.

 

[Calheel]

And that's the problem. The founding of our country was a violent act of rebellion. The most significant event in the country's subsequent history was a civil war. The fight for recognition of labor unions and workers' rights generally was violent on both sides (not symmetrically).

And it's not just American history. It's almost impossible to have discussions about politics in a more theoretical sense without talking about violence. Our Framers loved John Locke. Locke's entire theory was an answer to Hobbes' contention that life is short, brutish and nasty. And our constitution was arguably prompted by (and certainly shaped by) fear of mob violence. It is impossible to talk about our theory of democracy without acknowledging that the rule of law was designed to be violence-preventative, and thus the decline of rule of law will inevitably usher in violence.

The problem, I think, is that nycfan doesn't really want a politics site. She wants a current events site. And that's fine. 95% of her posts consist of news aggregation and people like that she does it. She rarely participates in more abstract threads, or respond to more theoretical posts. I can't recall ever having a detailed policy discussion with her. And again, that's fine.

I just don't think that everyone here wants a current events site. I don't think the majority of people want that. At some point, it's depressing and boring. Arguably, the reason that people here are itching to talk about violence is nycfan's news and social media aggregation. When we see so much irrationality, so much of a train wreck, so much irreparable damage without guard rails or even a coherent ideological program, it creates enormous frustration and if it seems that the only way for that frustration to end is overthrowing the existing order, that's what people are going to like.

To put it more succinctly to close: Trump wants to be a king. What happens to kings when they are sufficiently unpopular? Or for that matter dictators, like the ones Trump loves? There's just no way of talking about politics in 2025 while categorically excluding violence.

Then go join a political violence site. You’re even free to start your own site and recruit fellow jihadists. But this is a red line for her, and it is a completely reasonable position (even if not exactly the line I would draw).

 

[superrific]

I understand what you're saying. But how can you blame them when you said that the Arab population is seen as pro-terrorist and that Biden/Harris could not embrace them, then why would you expect them to embrace Biden/Harris? Do you see where the moral dilemma is for that population? How can you force them to vote for someone that will not reciprocate the support? (Again, I am not saying I agreed with their votes or lack of votes, but it is their mindset).

1. Because Biden and Harris were, in fact, keeping Bibi at least somewhat in check. And because Biden and Harris would never sell out the very idea of Palestine, as Trump has done. And, after the election passed, the administration would have more leeway to address both sides of the conflict. You just can't embrace pro-terrorist voices during an election season. You just can't. Voters expecting them to do so have little comprehension of our system and refuse to listen.

2. Biden and Harris embraced them as much as possible consistent with winning. That's the best you're going to get as a pariah group. Did black people like it when Clinton denounced Sista Souljah? Not the ones I knew. But Clinton was way better for racial equality and justice than the GOP. Black activists realized that the best way to help their communities was not by big political campaigns, but getting well-placed in policy positions where their voices could be heard, or their views put into practice by administrative agencies. I get it -- this was a war, and not something amenable to incrementalism. But in the end, what they did was devastating to their cause.

Take another example: climate change. Climate change has probably become my #1 voting issue. When I think of the damage being caused by Trump, I think of climate change. Trump is basically locking humanity into a devastating climate change future, unless we find miracle technologies to decarbonize and/or die out to AI. Did the Dems embrace that? No -- they barely said anything about climate change. So yeah, I'm frustrated with that. But I also know that Dems are trying to do something, even if it's insufficient; and are likely to do more when they have more power; and at least they won't make that worse. It's not great bread, but it's better than eating grass.

3. I say this as someone who has zero tolerance for bullshit discrimination, and who tries to do my best to act out my principles. An Afghani restaurant opened up near me last spring, run I'm sure by refugees. My wife and I basically stopped eating anywhere else, to give the restaurant our maximum support. The food was meh. But the idea was important. Alas, it closed last week.

 

[nycfan]

super is right about where we are now in this country.

but i also get why NYC, rock, etc. don't want this site to turn into some sort of left wing 4chan for both survival and liability reasons.

How about just moral reasons. If folks feel like they want to form a Committee on Public Safety discuss a Reign of Terror, go find yourself a Jacobin site and figure out who is your Robespierre. I get it, I’ll be first against the wall.

 

[superrific]

Then go join a political violence site. You’re even free to start your own site and recruit fellow jihadists. But this is a red line for her, and it is a completely reasonable position (even if not exactly the line I would draw).

Do you mean a political theory site? Why would you caricature my position as jihad? Do you think that's fair? And the problem with nycfan's position isn't its reasonableness but its workability.

But if you're inviting me to leave . . . I've said many times that I'm ambivalent about my participation here. It's both bad for me, and kinda sadly necessary for me.

 

[superrific]

How about just moral reasons.

So, yeah. That's an objectively bad response, and surely you can do better.

Are you suggesting that talk of killing Elon Musk is more immoral than all the discriminatory ideas championed by right-wingers here? Than the aggressive pro-Trump apologizing? But you put up with that gladly.

And this Reign of Terror nonsense is comically stupid. There's a really big gap between wishing for Elon Musk to die and mass beheading -- especially since, if we ever do get a reign of terror, it will be Elon and his minions leading the charge. In fact, the entire reason for talking about it is to try to head off the Reign Of Terror outcome.

Virtually every successful violent revolution in history has been followed by mass political violence and repression. Violence is a common societal response to tyranny. Our history includes Malcolm X and MLK, Nat Turner and Frederick Douglass. The idea that talking about history should be somehow verboten is ludicrous. You simply cannot talk about history or politics without raising the specter of violence. You might as well be talking about fairy tales.

 

[MOUNTAINH33L]

jihadists.

 

[nycfan]

Do you mean a political theory site? Why would you caricature my position as jihad? Do you think that's fair? And the problem with nycfan's position isn't its reasonableness but its workability.

But if you're inviting me to leave . . . I've said many times that I'm ambivalent about my participation here. It's both bad for me, and kinda sadly necessary for me.

For my part, I am asking you the same thing I’ve been asking everyone here, respect the request about the political violence rhetoric when you post here.

 

[superrific]

Yeah, that's so insulting as to merit a super-ignore. I won't do it but it's justified. I shouldn't have to tolerate that bullshit.

Nobody adds as much political/economic theoretical discussion here as I do. It's not even close. I might provide a substantial majority of it. My wheelhouse is law and policy. The idea that I'm a jihadist is beyond mockery level.

 

[superrific]

For my part, I am asking you the same thing I’ve been asking everyone here, respect the request about the political violence rhetoric when you post here.

Do you know why the revolution won't be televised, according to Gil Scott Heron? Because it's going to be violent. Because "Because black people will be in the street looking for a brighter day"

So is Gil Scott Heron in or out? He had many passages with far more violence.

The problem here is that the request cannot be respected without chilling an awful lot of speech, because it's been formulated in such a naive fashion. If you want to have a discussion on how the policy should be implemented, that's something we could do. But if it's just going to be "nycfan doesn't like this so it's off limits," you're going to have a really hard time enforcing that because it's nonsense.

 

[nycfan]

So, yeah. That's an objectively bad response, and surely you can do better.

Are you suggesting that talk of killing Elon Musk is more immoral than all the discriminatory ideas championed by right-wingers here? Than the aggressive pro-Trump apologizing? But you put up with that gladly.

And this Reign of Terror nonsense is comically stupid. There's a really big gap between wishing for Elon Musk to die and mass beheading -- especially since, if we ever do get a reign of terror, it will be Elon and his minions leading the charge. In fact, the entire reason for talking about it is to try to head off the Reign Of Terror outcome.

Virtually every successful violent revolution in history has been followed by mass political violence and repression. Violence is a common societal response to tyranny. Our history includes Malcolm X and MLK, Nat Turner and Frederick Douglass. The idea that talking about history should be somehow verboten is ludicrous. You simply cannot talk about history or politics without raising the specter of violence. You might as well be talking about fairy tales.

I invite you to cool it and respect the moderation request or take a break. Not for me, but seriously I am trying hard to keep this thing afloat for @Rock. Please and thank you.

 

[superrific]

I invite you to cool it and respect the moderation request or take a break. Not for me, but seriously I am trying hard to keep this thing afloat for @Rock. Please and thank you.

The request makes no sense. It's incoherent. The post that you responded to was explaining why people see Luigi as a hero. I get it -- you very much do not agree with that. I also do not agree with it. I had no reason to think that it would run afoul of your sensibilities.

The best way to ruin the site is to run off the better posters. Have fun with calla and ramrouser.

 

[dukeman92]

super is right about where we are now in this country.

but i also completely understand why NYC, rock, etc. don't want this site to turn into some sort of left wing 4chan for both survival and liability reasons.

I don't look at it as left wing vs. I look at it as the right side of history vs. And I say that while fully acknowledging that there are things about our party that we could do better. We're certainly not infallible.

 

[Rock]

@superrific I appreciate you asking about my health recently, to which I am not doing any better or worse. As such, @nycfan is moderating this place out of the kindness of her heart and while I don’t fully understand everything going on, I am just asking that you don’t make things hard for her (and extension me.)

Seeing as I don’t know what’s happening, you very well could be right in whatever you’re saying. And if so, it would help a bunch if everyone just took a breather and maybe read some sports news or go outside and listen to the birds sing.

Pretty please.

 

[Shenanigans]

MOD NOTE — cut the crap.

With conservative fascism here, right now, with all due respect, not one single thing I have posted here is crap. I am letting my Heels people know what is 100% happening before our very eyes, and what you need to do about it. That's all. Hop aboard the destroy trumpers train. It's the only thing they will understand with their low-functioning redneck brains.

 

[superrific]

@superrific I appreciate you asking about my health recently, to which I am not doing any better or worse. As such, @nycfan is moderating this place out of the kindness of her heart and while I don’t fully understand everything going on, I am just asking that you don’t make things hard for her (and extension me.)

Seeing as I don’t know what’s happening, you very well could be right in whatever you’re saying. And if so, it would help a bunch if everyone just took a breather and maybe read some sports news or go outside and listen to the birds sing.

Pretty please.

I was accused of being a Jacobin and a jihadist (and pushing the boundaries for sport) because I . . . accurately described the animating principle of the constitution and the philosophies of the framers. I get that you're unwell, and out of respect for your health and your service, I'll take a hike.

When you feel better, you should look at the proportion of threads started by nycfan. That's not a sign of a vibrant community. It's especially not, since the typical nycfan post is just a tweet and the typical responses are "those motherfuckers." Then the trolls come in, and people bicker with them.

Posters say, "why do you engage with the trolls" and the answer is that there's nothing else to do. The trolls have become a vital part of the site's ecology, because they are providing a service in rare supply: disagreement. And it's sort of sad that we can't do better than that.

Paine and I have had some disagreements that have led to useful discussions that people seem to like. But he's been scarce, probably in part because he's engaged and seems to have other things going on, and maybe because this bores him. Otherwise, the overall dynamic is approximated by "nycfan posts news; people get angry and yell at the posters who are provoking them as stand-ins for the tyrants who we would really like to be speaking to but they aren't listening."

If that's what you'd like the site to be, OK. I predict boredom. I get that you're unwell and I really feel bad for you, and I get that you have no energy to follow my thought process above. As I said, I'll take off for that reason. Just food for thought.

 

[CFordUNC]

I’ll be completely honest, and this is not intended to be disrespectful to nycfan, whom I appreciate and admire as a poster, but this board is becoming virtually unreadable and is a whole lot less enjoyable by the passing day to be part of. It actually has nothing to do with politics or ideological disagreement in my opinion, and everything to do with the fact that we have feels like 15 new thread topics started every single day, the overwhelming vast majority of which are by the same poster. There is absolutely no way that we need this many new threads. How many different threads do we need on Elon Musk or Elon Musk adjacent or doge or doge adjacent topics? I haven’t said anything until now but it has become a point of irritation to me recently, but I was more than willing to grin and bear it because overall I enjoy this community and the people in it, but if we are airing grievances on this thread, consider mine aired.

 

[Rock]

I was accused of being a Jacobin and a jihadist (and pushing the boundaries for sport) because I . . . accurately described the animating principle of the constitution and the philosophies of the framers. I get that you're unwell, and out of respect for your health and your service, I'll take a hike.

When you feel better, you should look at the proportion of threads started by nycfan. That's not a sign of a vibrant community. It's especially not, since the typical nycfan post is just a tweet and the typical responses are "those motherfuckers." Then the trolls come in, and people bicker with them.

Posters say, "why do you engage with the trolls" and the answer is that there's nothing else to do. The trolls have become a vital part of the site's ecology, because they are providing a service in rare supply: disagreement. And it's sort of sad that we can't do better than that.

Paine and I have had some disagreements that have led to useful discussions that people seem to like. But he's been scarce, probably in part because he's engaged and seems to have other things going on, and maybe because this bores him. Otherwise, the overall dynamic is approximated by "nycfan posts news; people get angry and yell at the posters who are provoking them as stand-ins for the tyrants who we would really like to be speaking to but they aren't listening."

If that's what you'd like the site to be, OK. I predict boredom. I get that you're unwell and I really feel bad for you, and I get that you have no energy to follow my thought process above. As I said, I'll take off for that reason. Just food for thought.

Appreciate your thoughts.

I’m not asking you to leave altogether if that’s what you’re suggesting. I was just asking that for this current situation, everyone just do me a favor and turn your attention elsewhere for the time being.

I value your thoughts on the board and agree with some of the things you said. Our registrations and site traffic keep ticking up so I’m not overly concerned with something being “wrong.” I’m sure Trump is a big driver of that because people want to read/discuss his actions.

Whatever direction the board goes in, I’m confident that @nycfan is an enormous driver of interest here. I’m not saying that to defend her or say you’re wrong, it’s just that I don’t know how to change the forum for the better through some action on our part. If you have any thoughts, please share them with me. And I mean that genuinely.

I’m sorry I’ve been sick and haven’t been more active but I’m hopeful the spring weather will help cure me and we can take this place to new heights.

 

[Calheel]

Do you mean a political theory site? Why would you caricature my position as jihad? Do you think that's fair? And the problem with nycfan's position isn't its reasonableness but its workability.

But if you're inviting me to leave . . . I've said many times that I'm ambivalent about my participation here. It's both bad for me, and kinda sadly necessary for me.

I’m not inviting you to leave and jihadists was tongue in cheek.

But NYCfan is clearly concerned that condoning political violence could lead to blood on her hands. All sites have to draw the line somewhere. She draws it differently than you’d draw it. And it is not like this is a new issue. She’s been raising this issue consistently for several months. At some point, it just becomes rude when you won’t respect her line drawing.

 

[Rock]

I’ll be completely honest, and this is not intended to be disrespectful to nycfan, whom I appreciate and admire as a poster, but this board is becoming virtually unreadable and is a whole lot less enjoyable by the passing day to be part of. It actually has nothing to do with politics or ideological disagreement in my opinion, and everything to do with the fact that we have feels like 15 new thread topics started every single day, the overwhelming vast majority of which are by the same poster. There is absolutely no way that we need this many new threads. How many different threads do we need on Elon Musk or Elon Musk adjacent or doge or doge adjacent topics? I haven’t seen anything until now but it has become a point of irritation to me recently, but I was more than willing to grin and bear it because overall I enjoy this community and the people in it, but if we are airing grievances on this thread, consider mine aired.

Thanks. We’ll work together to address this.

I come from a few forums, KUs version of IC, Phog.net, where we had more isolated threads and less running threads. But, IC users prefer the more long running threads surrounding a topic (Trump, Musk, etc.) correct?