Trump Retribution Phase | COMEY INDICTED

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And of course recoils at the idea that there should be consequences for him or his people.

Which is why there needs to be consequences. Severe ones. Even if Trump does recede from the scene, MAGA isn't going anywhere. Ram isn't ever going to be more informed, less racist, or less bigoted. The only way to get the Ramrousers of the world to favor the rule of law is to show them what happens when they don't respect it.

The problem is that conservatives know they can get away with it. Part of that is the Supreme Court, but part of it is liberals who don't punish the aberrant behavior in the name of "unity." It was a huge mistake in hindsight for Obama not to prosecute Bush torturers. I understand his reasoning, and it was persuasive at the time (there was a financial crisis, after all), and we couldn't foresee the future. But we shouldn't make the mistake again.

It was a mistake for Garland not to go after Trump harder and sooner. I don't think that mistake was consequential in the sense of locking Trump up. The Supreme Court was never going to let Trump be convicted of anything. And again, I understand the reasoning. Liberals generally want government to be successful, and that's not what prosecutions do in the short term. But we should understand that our freedoms require that MAGA, like smallpox, must be eradicated.

And we need a new constitution.
You and I have debated this ground a few times before and I think we generally know where each other stand. I'm in full agreement with you about the danger of MAGA, but the only way for them to be "eradicated" without a full-blown Civil War is for their governing philosophy to be shown to be a disaster. And I'm with you on the need for a new - or at least updated - constitution, but that isn't happening absent broad national consensus that we need one, which again isn't happening absent some sort of true disaster.

MAGA/Trumpism needs to fail spectacularly, from a political/economic standpoint, for us to move on. And as I've said before, the way for that to happen isn't for liberals to try to be more tyrannical than MAGA; I'm still fully confident that would result in an even bigger disaster.
 
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I'm curious why we haven't (yet) heard from our resident unabashed Trump-supporting attorney expressing concerns about "lawfare." Guessing because in this case, it's accountability. Right?
I'm sure you (we) agree that either Comey is lying or McCabe is lying, right?
 
Not going to go back 5 or 6 pages to see how many times this has been brought up, but without Comey in October 2016 reopening the Hillary email bullshit, Trump would have lost and we might have been spared all of this. But since Trump believes that HE and HE ALONE is the chosen one, his winning was aided by no one and nothing but his own brilliance.
 
No, we wouldn’t. How about Trump is lying? Did that thought occur to you?

It’s so weird that your natural default is to believe the one person in this country that refuses to tell the truth about anything.
It's so weird that you think Trump has anything to do with this. This is comparing statements made by McCabe and Comey.
 
Background on the Comey indictment he said / he said details:


“… The U.S. Department of Justice’s Office of Inspector General conducted a thorough investigation about the leak and found “FBI text messages by McCabe’s then-Special Counsel that reflected that she and the then-Assistant Director for Public Affairs (“AD/OPA”) had been in contact with Barrett on October 27 and 28, 2016.”

The Office of Inspector General interviewed McCabe several times and concluded in its report that “McCabe lacked candor when he stated that he told Comey on October 31, 2016, that he had authorized the disclosure to the WSJ.” That OIG report was damning of McCabe and relatively exonerating of Comey:

Comey told [the OIG] that, prior to the article’s publication, he did not have any discussions with McCabe regarding disclosure of the August 12 PADAG call.

According to Comey, he discussed the issue with McCabe after the article was published, and at that time McCabe “definitely did not tell me that he authorized” the disclosure of the PADAG call. Comey said that McCabe gave him the exact opposite impression:

When asked by the OIG about whether he would have approved the disclosure about the PADAG call to the WSJ, Comey stated: “o just to make sure there’s no fuzz on it, I did not authorize this. I would not have authorized this. If someone says that I did, then we ought to have another conversation because I, it doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.”

For what it’s worth, the OIG report concluded, “McCabe did not tell Comey on or around October 31 (or at any other time) that he (McCabe) had authorized the disclosure of information about the CF Investigation to the WSJ. Had McCabe done so, we believe that Comey would have objected to the disclosure.”

Fast forward to Comey’s appearance before the Senate Judiciary Committee, September 30, 2020:

Senator Ted Cruz: Let’s shift to another topic. On May 3rd, 2017, in this committee, Chairman Grassley asked you point blank, “Have you ever been an anonymous source in news reports about matters relating to the Trump investigation or the Clinton investigation?” You responded under oath, “Never.” He then asked you, “Have you ever authorized someone else at the FBI to be an anonymous source in news reports about the Trump investigation or the Clinton administration?” You responded again under oath, “No.”

Now, as you know, Mr. McCabe, who works for you, has publicly and repeatedly stated that he leaked information to the Wall Street Journal and that you were directly aware of it and that you directly authorized it. Now, what Mr. McCabe is saying and what you testified to this committee cannot both be true. One or the other is false. Who’s telling the truth?

Mr. Comey: I can only speak to my testimony. I stand by the testimony you summarized that I gave in May of 2017.

Senator Cruz: So, your testimony is you’ve never authorized anyone to leak? And Mr. McCabe, if he says contrary, is not telling the truth, is that correct?

Mr. Comey: Again, I’m not going to characterize Andy’s testimony, but mine is the same today.
…”
 
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You and I have debated this ground a few times before and I think we generally know where each other stand. I'm in full agreement with you about the danger of MAGA, but the only way for them to be "eradicated" without a full-blown Civil War is for their governing philosophy to be shown to be a disaster. And I'm with you on the need for a new - or at least updated - constitution, but that isn't happening absent broad national consensus that we need one, which again isn't happening absent some sort of true disaster.

MAGA/Trumpism needs to fail spectacularly, from a political/economic standpoint, for us to move on. And as I've said before, the way for that to happen isn't for liberals to try to be more tyrannical than MAGA; I'm still fully confident that would result in an even bigger disaster.
How can there be a bigger disaster? There will be no civil war under any circumstances. It's not possible. Meanwhile:

1. We will never get a broad national consensus ever until MAGA is defeated. Because MAGA opposes a national consensus. It is anathema to them. They get off on imposing their will on other people. They are pure divisiveness. They would oppose a consensus just because liberals supported it. You know this is true.

2. Fail spectacularly? You mean, more spectacularly than 2008? Or 2020? The defeated MAGAs didn't reassess their views. They just became more radical.

3. I'm not talking about being tyrannical. I've been thinking about this, and we need to return to the true genius of America: a written enforceable constitution. The reason we had one was specifically to substitute the rule of law for a rule of a person. None of the other leftist movements that came to power and abused it -- i.e. Soviet Union, Mao, the list goes on and we all know it -- had a constitution. And that's why government there became a contest of people.

It is not tyranny to use extreme pressure to obtain a new constitution, one that works in our new age. The constitution will promptly limit the tyranny. The problem in the Soviet Union wasn't that everybody wanted a dictatorship of the proletariat. Lenin and even Stalin could sound reasonable at times. But there was no way to hold them to that line. It's not hard to get one-time agreement about democracy. It's much harder to keep that agreement going. That's what a constitution would do.

Suppose the Bolsheviks revolted in 1917 and adopted a constitution with a bill of rights and an independent judiciary. The rights would be different than our rights, but do you think the gulag would exist? That depends on whether the Soviets could have kept their system together. And since they had no experience with democracy, maybe not.

We have a 250 year old tradition of democracy. That is one of our greatest assets as a nation. Trump wants to eradicate that. We should not fail to protect it until it is too late.

4. Your mentality -- I'm using "your" here for convenience, but obviously it is shared by most mainstream liberals and even myself until the depravity of this term -- is why conservatives keep winning. We look for a consensus where it is not possible and do everything meekly. We do the right things in an ineffective way. The right does the wrong thing in an effective way, because they don't care about rules or norms or laws or anything. That is an asymmetrical war we cannot win.

5. Do you support California gerrymandering in response to Texas? Isn't that a small instance of what I'm talking about, in the end? I don't see how you can support "self-defensive gerrymandering" but oppose similar measure that are merely grander in scale.
 
It's so weird that you think Trump has anything to do with this. This is comparing statements made by McCabe and Comey.
Lies are not the same as mistakes. McCabe and Comey could both be telling the truth as they understood it at the time, or as they remembered understanding. Indeed, it is common in litigation for a person to "lack credibility." That's the phrase that courts use. Not "they are lying," because the court doesn't know that. The person might lack credibility because a) they are lying; but also b) they are not well informed; c) their memory is scattered; d) they are looking at the world through a biased view, etc.
 
Lies are not the same as mistakes. McCabe and Comey could both be telling the truth as they understood it at the time, or as they remembered understanding. Indeed, it is common in litigation for a person to "lack credibility." That's the phrase that courts use. Not "they are lying," because the court doesn't know that. The person might lack credibility because a) they are lying; but also b) they are not well informed; c) their memory is scattered; d) they are looking at the world through a biased view, etc.
McCabe specifically said that Comey told him to leak info to the media. Comey specifically said that he didn't tell McCabe to leak information to the media.

Not much gray area. I have no problem digging into this to try to get the truth.

Cruz: Comey’s, McCabe’s statements ‘irreconcilably contradictory’​


Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Texas) said either former FBI Director James Comey or his Deputy Andrew McCabe gave false testimony to Congress and should be legally held accountable for their actions.

“Comey and McCabe’s statements are irreconcilably contradictory,” Cruz wrote in a Thursday post on social platform X.

“Whoever is lying under oath is committing a federal crime — and that’s what Comey has been indicted for,” he added.

Attorney General Pam Bondi on Thursday announced official charges against Comey for false statements to Congress and obstruction of a congressional proceeding.

The battle stems from 2020, when Cruz asked Comey at a hearing whether he had ever authorized a leak about the FBI’s investigation into former Democratic presidential nominee Hillary Clinton’s emails and connections between President Trump’s campaign and Russia.

 
McCabe specifically said that Comey told him to leak info to the media. Comey specifically said that he didn't tell McCabe to leak information to the media.

Not much gray area. I have no problem digging into this to try to get the truth.
That doesn't matter. It doesn't establish that either were lying. It only establishes that one of them was mistaken.

This isn't hard to understand if you try. Let's try a simple example:

Employee: I told you I was doing this! You said carry on.
Manager: When? you did not tell me that. I had no idea what you were doing.
Employee. I sent you an email. Let me bring it up.

[in the email, the employee states that he was doing that, but it's in the middle of a long paragraph that the manager didn't read]
Manager: Oh, I didn't see that.

Who is lying in this situation? Employee or manager? Neither. The case is closed: mere inconsistency in testimony does not establish that either party is lying. Nothing you can say changes that. Maybe one of McCabe or Comey was lying. It would have to proven, though. Mere falseness is not sufficient, as my example amply proves. Which is why intent is an element of the law of perjury.

If people could be indicted for mistakes in their testimony before Congress -- well, nobody would ever choose to testify, and we'd have a gulag full of political prisoners if they were forced to testify and then prosecuted for mistakes.
 
Background on the Comey indictment he said / he said details:


“…
FTR, here is the WSJ leak in question:

🎁—> http://www.wsj.com/articles/laptop-...-1477854957?reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

“… At a meeting early last week of senior Justice Department and FBI officials, a member of the department’s senior national-security staff asked for an update on the Weiner laptop, the people familiar with the matter said. At that point, officials realized that no one had acted to obtain a warrant, these people said.

Mr. McCabe then instructed the email investigators to talk to the Weiner investigators and see whether the laptop’s contents could be relevant to the Clinton email probe, these people said. After the investigators spoke, the agents agreed it was potentially relevant.

Mr. Comey was given an update, decided to go forward with the case and notified Congress on Friday, with explosive results. Senior Justice Department officials had warned the FBI that telling Congress would violate policies against overt actions that could affect an election, and some within the FBI have been unhappy at Mr. Comey’s repeated public statements on the probe, going back to his press conference on the subject in July.

… New details show that senior law-enforcement officials repeatedly voiced skepticism of the strength of the evidence in a bureau investigation of the Clinton Foundation, sought to condense what was at times a sprawling cross-country effort, and, according to some people familiar with the matter, told agents to limit their pursuit of the case. The probe of the foundation began more than a year ago to determine whether financial crimes or influence peddling occurred related to the charity.

… Some investigators grew frustrated, viewing FBI leadership as uninterested in probing the charity, these people said. Others involved disagreed sharply, defending FBI bosses and saying Mr. McCabe in particular was caught between an increasingly acrimonious fight for control between the Justice Department and FBI agents pursuing the Clinton Foundation case.

It isn’t unusual for field agents to favor a more aggressive approach than supervisors and prosecutors think is merited. But the internal debates about the Clinton Foundation show the high stakes when such disagreements occur surrounding someone who is running for president.

The Wall Street Journal reported last week that Mr. McCabe’s wife, Jill McCabe, received $467,500 in campaign funds in late 2015 from the political-action committee of Virginia Gov. Terry McAuliffe, a longtime ally of the Clintons and, until he was elected governor in November 2013, a Clinton Foundation board member.

…Dr. McCabe lost her race last November, and Democrats failed to win their majority.

… In February of this year, Mr. McCabe ascended from the No. 3 position at the FBI to the deputy director post. When he assumed that role, officials say, he started overseeing the probe into Mrs. Clinton’s use of a private email server for government work when she was secretary of state.

FBI officials have said Mr. McCabe had no role in the Clinton email probe until he became deputy director, and by then his wife’s campaign was over.

… About a week after Mr. Comey’s July announcement that he was recommending against any prosecution in the Clinton email case, the FBI sought to refocus the Clinton Foundation probe, with Mr. McCabe deciding the FBI’s New York office would take the lead, with assistance from Little Rock.

… The Washington field office, FBI officials decided, would focus on a separate matter involving Mr. McAuliffe. Mr. McCabe had decided earlier in the spring that he would continue to recuse himself from that probe, given the governor’s contributions to his wife’s former political campaign.

Within the FBI, the decision was viewed with skepticism by some, who felt the probe would be stronger if the foundation and McAuliffe matters were combined. Others, particularly Justice Department anticorruption prosecutors, felt that both probes were weak, based largely on publicly available information, and had found little that would merit expanded investigative authority.

… According to a person familiar with the probes, on Aug. 12, a senior Justice Department official called Mr. McCabe to voice his displeasure at finding that New York FBI agents were still openly pursuing the Clinton Foundation probe during the election season. Mr. McCabe said agents still had the authority to pursue the issue as long as they didn’t use overt methods requiring Justice Department approvals.

The Justice Department official was “very pissed off,” according to one person close to Mr. McCabe, and pressed him to explain why the FBI was still chasing a matter the department considered dormant.

Others said the Justice Department was simply trying to make sure FBI agents were following longstanding policy not to make overt investigative moves that could be seen as trying to influence an election. Those rules discourage investigators from making any such moves before a primary or general election, and, at a minimum, checking with anticorruption prosecutors before doing so.

“Are you telling me that I need to shut down a validly predicated investigation?” Mr. McCabe asked, according to people familiar with the conversation. After a pause, the official replied, “Of course not,” these people said.

For Mr. McCabe’s defenders, the exchange showed how he was stuck between an FBI office eager to pour more resources into a case and Justice Department prosecutors who didn’t think much of the case, one person said
. Those people said that following the call, Mr. McCabe reiterated past instructions to FBI agents that they were to keep pursuing the work within the authority they had.

Others further down the FBI chain of command, however, said agents were given a much starker instruction on the case: “Stand down.” When agents questioned why they weren’t allowed to take more aggressive steps, they said they were told the order had come from the deputy director—Mr. McCabe.

Others familiar with the matter deny Mr. McCabe or any other senior FBI official gave such a stand-down instruction.…”

——
TBH, I had not previously paid much attention to this leak investigation and the McCabe/Comey dispute previously, but reading the WSJ reported leaks that are the subject of the indictment, it seems MUCH more likely to me that McCabe would have been the one who wanted to do this leak since so much of it was about CYA for his role. Comey is almost a bit player in the story.

Could Comey have authorized or directed McCabe to provided the leaks to the WSJ? Sure. But why would he have? Hard to tell by the way the story was written — there’s not much positive for Comey in the story.

But I could also see something more like McCabe telling Comey that he had been contacted by the WSJ who said they have anonymous FBI agents on background pointing at McCabe blocking their investigation and tying it to McAuliffe’s large donation to Dr. McCabe’s failed campaign, seeking some authorization to defend himself anonymously/on background. Would Comey actually approve that? Would a couple of experienced G-Men have a more nuanced discussion that could be taken as implicit authorization for McCabe to talk to the WSJ but Comey was comfortable testifying he did not authorize that?

I dunno. But it seems like Comey will have a lot to work with in his defense of this thing goes to trial.
 
What kind of ignorant fuckface writes this:

"To get acquitted, Comey’s lawyers will have to convince at least one juror that former FBI Deputy Director Andrew McCabe is a duplicitous SOB who lied when he claimed Comey had given permission to leak the information when Comey did not. That does not exactly sound like Mission: Impossible."

From the National Review link.

Comey does not have to convince anyone of anything about McCabe. Why can't our journalists have a basic understanding of criminal law?
 
That doesn't matter. It doesn't establish that either were lying. It only establishes that one of them was mistaken.

This isn't hard to understand if you try. Let's try a simple example:

Employee: I told you I was doing this! You said carry on.
Manager: When? you did not tell me that. I had no idea what you were doing.
Employee. I sent you an email. Let me bring it up.

[in the email, the employee states that he was doing that, but it's in the middle of a long paragraph that the manager didn't read]
Manager: Oh, I didn't see that.

Who is lying in this situation? Employee or manager? Neither. The case is closed: mere inconsistency in testimony does not establish that either party is lying. Nothing you can say changes that. Maybe one of McCabe or Comey was lying. It would have to proven, though. Mere falseness is not sufficient, as my example amply proves. Which is why intent is an element of the law of perjury.

If people could be indicted for mistakes in their testimony before Congress -- well, nobody would ever choose to testify, and we'd have a gulag full of political prisoners if they were forced to testify and then prosecuted for mistakes.
I'm skeptical that telling someone to leak, or being told to leak, is something one would would 'forget' doing or have anything but good recollection of. Seems like a pretty big deal.
 
FTR, here is the WSJ leak in question:

🎁—> http://www.wsj.com/articles/laptop-...-1477854957?reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

“… At a meeting early last week of senior Justice Department and FBI officials, a member of the department’s senior national-security staff asked for an update on the Weiner laptop, the people familiar with the matter said. At that point, officials realized that no one had acted to obtain a warrant, these people said.

Mr. McCabe then instructed the email investigators to talk to the Weiner investigators and see whether the laptop’s contents could be relevant to the Clinton email probe, these people said. After the investigators spoke, the agents agreed it was potentially relevant.

Mr. Comey was given an update, decided to go forward with the case and notified Congress on Friday, with explosive results. Senior Justice Department officials had warned the FBI that telling Congress would violate policies against overt actions that could affect an election, and some within the FBI have been unhappy at Mr. Comey’s repeated public statements on the probe, going back to his press conference on the subject in July.

… New details show that senior law-enforcement officials repeatedly voiced skepticism of the strength of the evidence in a bureau investigation of the Clinton Foundation, sought to condense what was at times a sprawling cross-country effort, and, according to some people familiar with the matter, told agents to limit their pursuit of the case. The probe of the foundation began more than a year ago to determine whether financial crimes or influence peddling occurred related to the charity.

… Some investigators grew frustrated, viewing FBI leadership as uninterested in probing the charity, these people said. Others involved disagreed sharply, defending FBI bosses and saying Mr. McCabe in particular was caught between an increasingly acrimonious fight for control between the Justice Department and FBI agents pursuing the Clinton Foundation case.

It isn’t unusual for field agents to favor a more aggressive approach than supervisors and prosecutors think is merited. But the internal debates about the Clinton Foundation show the high stakes when such disagreements occur surrounding someone who is running for president.

The Wall Street Journal reported last week that Mr. McCabe’s wife, Jill McCabe, received $467,500 in campaign funds in late 2015 from the political-action committee of Virginia Gov. Terry McAuliffe, a longtime ally of the Clintons and, until he was elected governor in November 2013, a Clinton Foundation board member.

…Dr. McCabe lost her race last November, and Democrats failed to win their majority.

… In February of this year, Mr. McCabe ascended from the No. 3 position at the FBI to the deputy director post. When he assumed that role, officials say, he started overseeing the probe into Mrs. Clinton’s use of a private email server for government work when she was secretary of state.

FBI officials have said Mr. McCabe had no role in the Clinton email probe until he became deputy director, and by then his wife’s campaign was over.

… About a week after Mr. Comey’s July announcement that he was recommending against any prosecution in the Clinton email case, the FBI sought to refocus the Clinton Foundation probe, with Mr. McCabe deciding the FBI’s New York office would take the lead, with assistance from Little Rock.

… The Washington field office, FBI officials decided, would focus on a separate matter involving Mr. McAuliffe. Mr. McCabe had decided earlier in the spring that he would continue to recuse himself from that probe, given the governor’s contributions to his wife’s former political campaign.

Within the FBI, the decision was viewed with skepticism by some, who felt the probe would be stronger if the foundation and McAuliffe matters were combined. Others, particularly Justice Department anticorruption prosecutors, felt that both probes were weak, based largely on publicly available information, and had found little that would merit expanded investigative authority.

… According to a person familiar with the probes, on Aug. 12, a senior Justice Department official called Mr. McCabe to voice his displeasure at finding that New York FBI agents were still openly pursuing the Clinton Foundation probe during the election season. Mr. McCabe said agents still had the authority to pursue the issue as long as they didn’t use overt methods requiring Justice Department approvals.

The Justice Department official was “very pissed off,” according to one person close to Mr. McCabe, and pressed him to explain why the FBI was still chasing a matter the department considered dormant.

Others said the Justice Department was simply trying to make sure FBI agents were following longstanding policy not to make overt investigative moves that could be seen as trying to influence an election. Those rules discourage investigators from making any such moves before a primary or general election, and, at a minimum, checking with anticorruption prosecutors before doing so.

“Are you telling me that I need to shut down a validly predicated investigation?” Mr. McCabe asked, according to people familiar with the conversation. After a pause, the official replied, “Of course not,” these people said.

For Mr. McCabe’s defenders, the exchange showed how he was stuck between an FBI office eager to pour more resources into a case and Justice Department prosecutors who didn’t think much of the case, one person said
. Those people said that following the call, Mr. McCabe reiterated past instructions to FBI agents that they were to keep pursuing the work within the authority they had.

Others further down the FBI chain of command, however, said agents were given a much starker instruction on the case: “Stand down.” When agents questioned why they weren’t allowed to take more aggressive steps, they said they were told the order had come from the deputy director—Mr. McCabe.

Others familiar with the matter deny Mr. McCabe or any other senior FBI official gave such a stand-down instruction.…”

——
TBH, I had not previously paid much attention to this leak investigation and the McCabe/Comey dispute previously, but reading the WSJ reported leaks that are the subject of the indictment, it seems MUCH more likely to me that McCabe would have been the one who wanted to do this leak since so much of it was about CYA for his role. Comey is almost a bit player in the story.

Could Comey have authorized or directed McCabe to provided the leaks to the WSJ? Sure. But why would he have? Hard to tell by the way the story was written — there’s not much positive for Comey in the story.

But I could also see something more like McCabe telling Comey that he had been contacted by the WSJ who said they have anonymous FBI agents on background pointing at McCabe blocking their investigation and tying it to McAuliffe’s large donation to Dr. McCabe’s failed campaign, seeking some authorization to defend himself anonymously/on background. Would Comey actually approve that? Would a couple of experienced G-Men have a more nuanced discussion that could be taken as implicit authorization for McCabe to talk to the WSJ but Comey was comfortable testifying he did not authorize that?

I dunno. But it seems like Comey will have a lot to work with in his defense of this thing goes to trial.
"I dunno. But it seems like Comey will have a lot to work with in his defense of this thing goes to trial."

Innocent until proven guilty, right? I'd say the pressure is on the prosecution, not Comey & Co.
 
"I dunno. But it seems like Comey will have a lot to work with in his defense of this thing goes to trial."

Innocent until proven guilty, right? I'd say the pressure is on the prosecution, not Comey & Co.
Well, any time a person is indicted and under threat of conviction, that person is under considerable pressure. But in terms of getting the conviction, yes, the prosecution has the burden of proof and this particular defendant has a lot of ways to create a reasonable doubt in the mind of jurors.
 
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