Turning Points

Most All the white people down in #DeepChatham went crazy when Obama won...still crazy down there. Trump jumped all over that racism and played it...some of those people had already showed themselves with the Tea Party mess. The GOP tied John McCain down with Sarah Palin, dooming him (though Obama was an exceptional candidate in his own right).
What's the prevalence of what we might call "go-along racism" or "peer pressure racism" in #DeepChatham? That is, people with unfavorable views of minorities but not necessarily that much animus, who display animus in order to fit in with peers or at least not stand out in a crowd? People who might be willing to vote secret ballot for a black man when the country is in shit?

I mean, I'm clearly calling for speculation here. I'm just wondering your general opinion of the attitudes.
 
Mmmm.... yes and no on Clinton. The sex scandal aside, he left us with a balanced budget and a thriving economy...

BUT...

I think the pigeons have come home to roost in the "I'm tough on Crime" deal with the Devil he felt he needed to do to win his second term. Those crime policies as enacted had a disproportionately negative impact on young black men leading to wide spread disillusionment of said young black men about whose side exactly the Democrats were on. We are reaping as we have sown right up to this day.
Because paine is no longer here with us, I'll note that I think he and other leftists would argue that the pigeons came home to roost to some extent on Clinton's "thriving economy" too - that the economic change Clinton brought was great for the white collar class but not so much for the blue collar class, as the offshoring of manufacturing really accelerated. (Personally I think it's not so black and white - I think the decline of American manufacturing was largely inevitable in the way that loss of jobs in industries like lamplighting, milk delivery, and coal mining was largely inevitable - just wanted to note that).
 
Because paine is no longer here with us, I'll note that I think he and other leftists would argue that the pigeons came home to roost to some extent on Clinton's "thriving economy" too - that the economic change Clinton brought was great for the white collar class but not so much for the blue collar class, as the offshoring of manufacturing really accelerated. (Personally I think it's not so black and white - I think the decline of American manufacturing was largely inevitable in the way that loss of jobs in industries like lamplighting, milk delivery, and coal mining was largely inevitable - just wanted to note that).
I'm in agreement with proxy Paine on this.

The sin of NAFTA is not that it wan't beneficial. It was that it was a huge net positive, but deeply inequal about how the costs and benefit were spread around. There were more winners than losers (i.e. everyone who liked to buy cheap Chinese goods at wal-mart), but we also created a giant class of people who lost everything too. And because we've terrified ourselves of the socialism boogie-man under our national bed (BOO!) we tied our own hands and prevented ourselves from helping those who free trade devastated.
 
You ignored Blanco. That was whom I was mainly placing the blame on. Blanco is the governor of a state in the Gulf of America (f/k/a Mexico) - in hurricane alley. Hurricane preparedness and response is one of the MAIN duties of a governor in that region. All you have to do is compare her lack of action to Haley Barber in Mississippi or DeSantis (or Crist to be bipartisan) in Florida. Yes, NO presented unique challenges but those challenges were well known to the State prior to Katrina.
1. If you were mainly placing the blame on Blanco, why didn't you say so? Are we supposed to read your mind?

2. Blanco's issues were in the preparedness. Preparedness is typically addressed in after-the-fact analyses, and indeed after a few months, both conventional wisdom and popular opinion held the city, the state and the feds responsible. Look up the polling well after the crisis resolution.

3. If you think sins in preparedness are going to attract as much attention as sins of response, you must not be paying much attention to politics. It's always like that, mostly because the vast majority of people aren't paying attention before the crisis. Until New Orleans flooded, it was just another hurricane. And nobody can assess preparedness on their own, so the talking heads start spinning and people don't know what to believe -- except they see on the TVs a great American city looking like a Third World nation.

I mean, this is almost always YOUR argument in favor of MAGA. Do you believe the official employment numbers in 2024, or do you believe your own eyes? The difference is that MAGA finds a way to cause people to distrust both the stats and their own experience, in favor of Fox News propaganda.

4. As I said before, events don't occur in a vacuum. Katrina hit when the war in Iraq was at its low point. We were obviously not winning; thousands of soldiers were dying or getting seriously injured; it was costing a fortune; and it became clear that the whole WMD thing was bullshit from the beginning. And yet Bush and Rummy were carrying on as if they didn't fucking care. Remember "you go to war with the army you have, not the army you want"? "Unknown Unknowns"? They were running an incompetent operation abroad, and everyone knew it.

So then when people saw an analogous clusterfuck, and then heard Bush say "you're doing a heck of a job, Brownie," it reminded too clearly of all the times Bush disingenuously heaped praise on Rumsfeld. As if the priority was not hurting Rummy or Brownie's feelings, with the welfare of the American people coming in a distant second.

Politically speaking, it was a Bush WH fuckup and it couldn't have happened without all the other fuckups.

5. I've given Bush credit and I will again for his post-Katrina humility. I really have the sense that it was a watershed moment for him, when he realized that his staff was treating him like a fool and manipulating his reality. And so he stopped trusting anyone. Rumsfeld was fired in 06, and Bush became less chummy with Cheney. Cheney was pissed that Bush wouldn't commute Libby's sentence; I think Bush refused mostly as a middle finger to the VP.

So in retrospect, it was because of Katrina that we could see Bush more clearly as a good person. A terrible, terrible president, but not the monster like some members of his administration. This is also why, in my view, he has stayed away from the public view basically forever. I think he was deeply ashamed of his performance, deeply ashamed that he had let himself be walked around on a leash he couldn't see. Which doesn't really alleviate his many sins, but it shows them to have been more incompetence than malice.
 
I'm in agreement with proxy Paine on this.

but we also created a giant class of people who lost everything too.
Not that giant. Just easily visible. Everyone who lost their store when Wal-Mart arrived and then had to work as a greeter -- we know who they are. And we know the investor class.

People generally don't understand how their jobs are enabled by free trade. My rather limited but non-zero experience with workers in export businesses is that they don't really understand that they wouldn't be able to export without free trade agreements. Or, I should say, didn't understand until the free trade agreements were murdered. They couldn't appreciate what they took for granted (this might be a tautology but fuck it).

Or another example: autoworkers. There would be no American car companies without outsourced work to Mexico. They had become completely uncompetitive. Even with tariffs, imports were better and cheaper. I mean, hell, even with outsourcing GM and Chrysler ended up in Chapter 11 (with government assistance) and Ford has teetered a couple of times. So if there were no Mexican auto plants, there would be no Detroit auto plants either.
 
1. If you were mainly placing the blame on Blanco, why didn't you say so? Are we supposed to read your mind?

2. Blanco's issues were in the preparedness. Preparedness is typically addressed in after-the-fact analyses, and indeed after a few months, both conventional wisdom and popular opinion held the city, the state and the feds responsible. Look up the polling well after the crisis resolution.

3. If you think sins in preparedness are going to attract as much attention as sins of response, you must not be paying much attention to politics. It's always like that, mostly because the vast majority of people aren't paying attention before the crisis. Until New Orleans flooded, it was just another hurricane. And nobody can assess preparedness on their own, so the talking heads start spinning and people don't know what to believe -- except they see on the TVs a great American city looking like a Third World nation.

I mean, this is almost always YOUR argument in favor of MAGA. Do you believe the official employment numbers in 2024, or do you believe your own eyes? The difference is that MAGA finds a way to cause people to distrust both the stats and their own experience, in favor of Fox News propaganda.

4. As I said before, events don't occur in a vacuum. Katrina hit when the war in Iraq was at its low point. We were obviously not winning; thousands of soldiers were dying or getting seriously injured; it was costing a fortune; and it became clear that the whole WMD thing was bullshit from the beginning. And yet Bush and Rummy were carrying on as if they didn't fucking care. Remember "you go to war with the army you have, not the army you want"? "Unknown Unknowns"? They were running an incompetent operation abroad, and everyone knew it.

So then when people saw an analogous clusterfuck, and then heard Bush say "you're doing a heck of a job, Brownie," it reminded too clearly of all the times Bush disingenuously heaped praise on Rumsfeld. As if the priority was not hurting Rummy or Brownie's feelings, with the welfare of the American people coming in a distant second.

Politically speaking, it was a Bush WH fuckup and it couldn't have happened without all the other fuckups.

5. I've given Bush credit and I will again for his post-Katrina humility. I really have the sense that it was a watershed moment for him, when he realized that his staff was treating him like a fool and manipulating his reality. And so he stopped trusting anyone. Rumsfeld was fired in 06, and Bush became less chummy with Cheney. Cheney was pissed that Bush wouldn't commute Libby's sentence; I think Bush refused mostly as a middle finger to the VP.

So in retrospect, it was because of Katrina that we could see Bush more clearly as a good person. A terrible, terrible president, but not the monster like some members of his administration. This is also why, in my view, he has stayed away from the public view basically forever. I think he was deeply ashamed of his performance, deeply ashamed that he had let himself be walked around on a leash he couldn't see. Which doesn't really alleviate his many sins, but it shows them to have been more incompetence than malice.
And yet, I look back to those Bush years as relative good/sane times compared with the insanity of Trump/MGA today.
 
And yet, I look back to those Bush years as relative good/sane times compared with the insanity of Trump/MGA today.
True, but the seeds were already there.

Almost nobody remembers that the initial draft of TARP, as submitted by Treasury to Congress, was a page and a half in a notepad file and the substance was basically, "give Treasury unlimited money and unlimited authority and we'll fix it." And that was Hank Paulson in charge, who should have known better. Who did know better. I guess he got infected by the GOP brain worm that makes people stupider the minute they hold a GOP office?
 
@superrific wrote: "
What's the prevalence of what we might call "go-along racism" or "peer pressure racism" in #DeepChatham? That is, people with unfavorable views of minorities but not necessarily that much animus, who display animus in order to fit in with peers or at least not stand out in a crowd? People who might be willing to vote secret ballot for a black man when the country is in shit?

I mean, I'm clearly calling for speculation here. I'm just wondering your general opinion of the attitudes."

I can certainly speculate and I've got a shred of evidence, anecdotal of course, to work with in the very few social media friends from 'down that way' that will actually engage with me. I've got a lot of "friends" that must have me on ignore or choose to have no truck with me -- I even look in on some of them from time to time to see how crazy they are. But I do have a few folks that own up to not only knowing me but agreeing with me (and a couple of them are a bit surprising). I figure there might be a few others that peak in on an anti-racist world but don't admit or acknowledge it. Of course, most of my African American friends that still live in #DeepChatham are also faced with an onus wrought of the white community if they were to be too chummy with me...thankfully some clearly don't care but I suspect that a few just stay under cover. Race relations are pretty weird down there nowadays to be sure but then they've always been. I did once believe they were getting better but then trump emboldened the hard-core racists and gave permission to the lesser types to be white supremacists. The set-back has probably been a couple of generations...I'll never live to see even a return to the best it had become. That's another thing that trump has ruined...rural America, especially in The South, where healing and reconciliation was moving forward...of course the blame would be placed on Obama by plenty of folks...for getting "uppity."

The dook gear, hats mostly, is a codified white supremacist signal down that way...just another way that trump has ruined the country.


By the way...NAFTA stood for North American Fair Trade Agreement but it never, ever was that as long as workers couldn't trade their labor power freely across borders.
 
@superrific wrote: "
What's the prevalence of what we might call "go-along racism" or "peer pressure racism" in #DeepChatham? That is, people with unfavorable views of minorities but not necessarily that much animus, who display animus in order to fit in with peers or at least not stand out in a crowd? People who might be willing to vote secret ballot for a black man when the country is in shit?

I mean, I'm clearly calling for speculation here. I'm just wondering your general opinion of the attitudes."

I can certainly speculate and I've got a shred of evidence, anecdotal of course, to work with in the very few social media friends from 'down that way' that will actually engage with me. I've got a lot of "friends" that must have me on ignore or choose to have no truck with me -- I even look in on some of them from time to time to see how crazy they are. But I do have a few folks that own up to not only knowing me but agreeing with me (and a couple of them are a bit surprising). I figure there might be a few others that peak in on an anti-racist world but don't admit or acknowledge it. Of course, most of my African American friends that still live in #DeepChatham are also faced with an onus wrought of the white community if they were to be too chummy with me...thankfully some clearly don't care but I suspect that a few just stay under cover. Race relations are pretty weird down there nowadays to be sure but then they've always been. I did once believe they were getting better but then trump emboldened the hard-core racists and gave permission to the lesser types to be white supremacists. The set-back has probably been a couple of generations...I'll never live to see even a return to the best it had become. That's another thing that trump has ruined...rural America, especially in The South, where healing and reconciliation was moving forward...of course the blame would be placed on Obama by plenty of folks...for getting "uppity."

The dook gear, hats mostly, is a codified white supremacist signal down that way...just another way that trump has ruined the country.


By the way...NAFTA stood for North American Fair Trade Agreement but it never, ever was that as long as workers couldn't trade their labor power freely across borders.
Well, it was North American Free Trade Agreement, so there's part of the confusion.
 
You ignored Blanco. That was whom I was mainly placing the blame on. Blanco is the governor of a state in the Gulf of America (f/k/a Mexico) - in hurricane alley. Hurricane preparedness and response is one of the MAIN duties of a governor in that region. All you have to do is compare her lack of action to Haley Barber in Mississippi or DeSantis (or Crist to be bipartisan) in Florida. Yes, NO presented unique challenges but those challenges were well known to the State prior to Katrina.
Where is this fictional body of water you speak of? I can't find it on any legitimate map
 
@superrific wrote: "
What's the prevalence of what we might call "go-along racism" or "peer pressure racism" in #DeepChatham? That is, people with unfavorable views of minorities but not necessarily that much animus, who display animus in order to fit in with peers or at least not stand out in a crowd? People who might be willing to vote secret ballot for a black man when the country is in shit?

I mean, I'm clearly calling for speculation here. I'm just wondering your general opinion of the attitudes."

I can certainly speculate and I've got a shred of evidence, anecdotal of course, to work with in the very few social media friends from 'down that way' that will actually engage with me. I've got a lot of "friends" that must have me on ignore or choose to have no truck with me -- I even look in on some of them from time to time to see how crazy they are. But I do have a few folks that own up to not only knowing me but agreeing with me (and a couple of them are a bit surprising). I figure there might be a few others that peak in on an anti-racist world but don't admit or acknowledge it. Of course, most of my African American friends that still live in #DeepChatham are also faced with an onus wrought of the white community if they were to be too chummy with me...thankfully some clearly don't care but I suspect that a few just stay under cover. Race relations are pretty weird down there nowadays to be sure but then they've always been. I did once believe they were getting better but then trump emboldened the hard-core racists and gave permission to the lesser types to be white supremacists. The set-back has probably been a couple of generations...I'll never live to see even a return to the best it had become. That's another thing that trump has ruined...rural America, especially in The South, where healing and reconciliation was moving forward...of course the blame would be placed on Obama by plenty of folks...for getting "uppity."

The dook gear, hats mostly, is a codified white supremacist signal down that way...just another way that trump has ruined the country.
Thank you. Interesting.
 
The appointment of Merrick Garland as the Attorney General of the United States.
You don't think the appointment of Garland to SCOTUS was more of a turning point? Because that actually led to his AG nomination. Had there not been obstruction to his SCOTUS hearings, a lot of things might be a lot different.
 
I can certainly speculate and I've got a shred of evidence, anecdotal of course, to work with in the very few social media friends from 'down that way' that will actually engage with me. I've got a lot of "friends" that must have me on ignore or choose to have no truck with me -- I even look in on some of them from time to time to see how crazy they are. But I do have a few folks that own up to not only knowing me but agreeing with me (and a couple of them are a bit surprising). I figure there might be a few others that peak in on an anti-racist world but don't admit or acknowledge it.
When I was a mid-teenager, I was a "go along" homophobe. I didn't really have anything against gay people at all, but I had trouble enough fitting in and I didn't want to be thought of as gay or even gay sympathetic. So while I didn't make f* jokes or anything, I wasn't about to like the Cure or Depeche Mode (fortunately I didn't like either on the merits).

I grew out of it by the time I was 16 or 17. Probably 17, third semester of college seems bout right. I don't feel bad about it. I did the best I could, and I don't think I ever hurt anyone.
 
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