Ukraine War | Zelensky seeks NATO guarantees for unoccupied Ukraine for peace

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hedge said:
Genesis chapter 6:

When human beings began to grow numerous on the earth and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw how beautiful the daughters of human beings were, and so they took for their wives whomever they pleased... The Nephilim appeared on earth in those days, as well as later, after the sons of God had intercourse with the daughters of human beings, who bore them sons. They were the heroes of old, the men of renown.
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That's a different work of fiction. I was actually referencing the 1996 scify/action blockbuster, Independence Day. But the bible is a decent yarn too.
 
Ukrainian forces are withdrawing from the old front line north of Krasnogorovka as Russian forces are assaulting Zhelannoe Pervoe. Russian forces are also advancing inside Selidovo, and are on the outskirts of Ukrainsk. The southern front is heating up. I fear the Russians are very close to breaking through in several areas and advancing 7-10km a day. Things are bleak for the UA.
 
Batt Boy said:
Ukrainian forces are withdrawing from the old front line north of Krasnogorovka as Russian forces are assaulting Zhelannoe Pervoe. Russian forces are also advancing inside Selidovo, and are on the outskirts of Ukrainsk. The southern front is heating up. I fear the Russians are very close to breaking through in several areas and advancing 7-10km a day. Things are bleak for the UA.
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It seems both sides have sacrificed some defense to bolster their offense. It's odd though, the Ukranians have forces they can use to defend this area, they're just choosing not to do so. Some Russians think something is up because of this.

The Ukranian military leadership also wants to change this war from WW1 style pound each other (which favors Russia) to a mobile war with tactics and movement (which favors Ukraine). Not sure if this is part of that strategy or not.
 
Russia-related (though pretty sure the U.S. military does similar things, too)

 
nycfan said:
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These types of terror attacks never work short of a nuclear weapon. They tend to harden the population against the country that is bombing them. At best it shows your population that you are striking back, but that can be done in other ways that strike military targets.

Its one thing to be bombing a fuel depot deep inside Russia. Totally different thing to be hitting an apartment complex.
 
gtyellowjacket said:
These types of terror attacks never work short of a nuclear weapon. They tend to harden the population against the country that is bombing them. At best it shows your population that you are striking back, but that can be done in other ways that strike military targets.

Its one thing to be bombing a fuel depot deep inside Russia. Totally different thing to be hitting an apartment complex.
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I'd argue the opposite. There are too many fuel depots to make any impact by destroying some.

However, the political support of Moscow is important for the war effort to continue under Putin. The most propagandized portion of the population is in places like Moscow and hitting them where they live will make the war more real to them.

Let's see if their resolve can stand up to actually being bombed.
 
Raijin23 said:
I'd argue the opposite. There are too many fuel depots to make any impact by destroying some.

However, the political support of Moscow is important for the war effort to continue under Putin. The most propagandized portion of the population is in places like Moscow and hitting them where they live will make the war more real to them.

Let's see if their resolve can stand up to actually being bombed.
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That's always the plan: "we'll just bomb them until the populace rises up to overthrow their rulers." But it never happens. Hitler tried it on Great Britain. Then we tried it on Germany. Then we really tried it with fire bombs on Japan. Then we tried it on Vietnam. And Putin tried it on Ukraine. It hasn't worked before, but maybe this time it will work?
 
gtyellowjacket said:
That's always the plan: "we'll just bomb them until the populace rises up to overthrow their rulers." But it never happens. Hitler tried it on Great Britain. Then we tried it on Germany. Then we really tried it with fire bombs on Japan. Then we tried it on Vietnam. And Putin tried it on Ukraine. It hasn't worked before, but maybe this time it will work?
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The goal isn't to make them overthrow Putin but to make it politically expedient for the Russians to stop the war as soon as possible and enter negotiations motivated to get a deal done.
 
Much more likely the apartment building was either struck in error or after being hit by air-defense (or air defense itself hit the building itself) than Ukraine was actually targeting the civilian population.
 
nycfan said:
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Literally fuck that dude sideways with a lunchbox. STOP IT! Biden? How about STOP IT! Putin! Unfortunately, the bribery slush fund that has accumulated in autocratic societies around the world is horribly warping the morality of the post-soviet world. No good answers that won't stomp on individual rights, but the brazenness of halfwit grifters with even a smidgen of notoriety is a plague on civilization we may not survive.
 
statboy2 said:
Much more likely the apartment building was either struck in error or after being hit by air-defense (or air defense itself hit the building itself) than Ukraine was actually targeting the civilian population.
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Just to be clear, I have no idea if Ukraine struck an apartment building. I was using it as an example of a civilian target vs a military one. I was assuming Ukraine was striking civilian targets based on the drone swarm towards Moscow tweet but they may be a very bad assumption with drones being fairly accurate.
 
gtyellowjacket said:
When has that ever worked in the past?
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I'm order to site something from the past, there has to be a comparable conflict with similar dynamics as the Russo-Ukrainian war. There isn't anything in modern warfare that's comparable.

Most modern conflicts have either been civil wars or insurgencies, not between nation states.

After your admonishment of citing things from over a hundred years ago, I'm hopeful you won't be citing the Germans bombing the Brits ;-)

In this particular case, neither country can afford to keep prosecuting this war indefinitely. Ukraine's breaking point is whenever they lose enough men that fighting is no longer feasible because they are defending their home. Russia's breaking point is going to be whenever one of several factions (Putin, Military, white collar electorate, China) lose the will to keep going.
 
Raijin23 said:
I'm order to site something from the past, there has to be a comparable conflict with similar dynamics as the Russo-Ukrainian war. There isn't anything in modern warfare that's comparable.

Most modern conflicts have either been civil wars or insurgencies, not between nation states.

After your admonishment of citing things from over a hundred years ago, I'm hopeful you won't be citing the Germans bombing the Brits ;-)

In this particular case, neither country can afford to keep prosecuting this war indefinitely. Ukraine's breaking point is whenever they lose enough men that fighting is no longer feasible because they are defending their home. Russia's breaking point is going to be whenever one of several factions (Putin, Military, white collar electorate, China) lose the will to keep going.
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I did cite the Germans bombing the brits. But more recently we bombed the Vietnamese. The Syrians and Russians bombed Syrian rebels. And the Israelis are bombing Hamas. Its too soo to tell for Israel and probably Syria, but it definitely did not work in Vietnam.
 
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