UNC @ Charlotte

[Zoo_View]

I’ve said it before and I’ll keep saying whenever we hire someone who isn’t currently a head coach or an OUTSTANDING coordinator.

That person will struggle putting together a staff. Even the NFL’s alleged GOAT. That person better be ready to make coaching changes in the 1st year.

 

[1moretimeagain]

I think there is a very simple and logical explanation for many, if not most, of Belichick's hires: he hired people he knew, and people he knew would do whatever he told them to do. Lombardi, who I think is a total clown; Kitchens; Bill's own kids, and his friends' kids. Aside from a few position coaches here or there, that's basically how our staff was created. I don't think Belichick is stupid, but he's 73 and has always been pretty obviously egotistical. It's perfectly fine to be egotistical when you're backing it up with results - for years there it really didn't seem to matter who Belichick brought in as his coordinators, as long as they were guys Belichick was comfortable with - but Belichick hasn't been doing that for several years now. So no, I don't think hiring Kitchens is some galaxy-brain move and suddenly when Clemson comes to town we're going to break out the "real" offense or something. I think Bill simply hired someone he already knew, with a preexisting connection to UNC, who would never question Bill and execute what he was asked without complaint. Maybe he also believed Kitchens would be a good OC, but I really doubt he evaluated that rigorously.

So in sum, I don't think Belichick suddenly became an idiot, but I do think the combination of his ego and his advancing age have led him to make some questionable hires that were based more on getting people who would execute his commands than getting people who would bring independent merit to the table.

 

[mpaer]

I’ve said it before and I’ll keep saying whenever we hire someone who isn’t currently a head coach or an OUTSTANDING coordinator.

That person will struggle putting together a staff. Even the NFL’s alleged GOAT. That person better be ready to make coaching changes in the 1st year.

Oh I think with Macks pizazz in recruiting-if he had good coordinators-we might have done something The coordinators could have recuited some good linemen, and coached

 

[rodoheel]

 

[superrific]

I think there is a very simple and logical explanation for many, if not most, of Belichick's hires: he hired people he knew, and people he knew would do whatever he told them to do. Lombardi, who I think is a total clown; Kitchens; Bill's own kids, and his friends' kids. Aside from a few position coaches here or there, that's basically how our staff was created. I don't think Belichick is stupid, but he's 73 and has always been pretty obviously egotistical. It's perfectly fine to be egotistical when you're backing it up with results - for years there it really didn't seem to matter who Belichick brought in as his coordinators, as long as they were guys Belichick was comfortable with - but Belichick hasn't been doing that for several years now. So no, I don't think hiring Kitchens is some galaxy-brain move and suddenly when Clemson comes to town we're going to break out the "real" offense or something. I think Bill simply hired someone he already knew, with a preexisting connection to UNC, who would never question Bill and execute what he was asked without complaint. Maybe he also believed Kitchens would be a good OC, but I really doubt he evaluated that rigorously.

So in sum, I don't think Belichick suddenly became an idiot, but I do think the combination of his ego and his advancing age have led him to make some questionable hires that were based more on getting people who would execute his commands than getting people who would bring independent merit to the table.

Well, I'm not only talking about the staff hires, but their performance after being hired. I'm not actually saying there is a method to the madness. I would think so, but I've not seen anyone make a convincing case as to why the offense looks like this. Last week I argued that it might be rational to punt a game at the beginning of the season to get a better handle on personnel, but that isn't the same thing as it being true (of which I have no idea, and since most posters dismissed the possibility out of hand, I'm guessing not).

Anyway, it's the complete lack of inspiration and the experience of those involved that is puzzling. Seventy-three years or not, there is no way he has forgotten the basics of offense. There is no way he looks at this and thinks, fine. And how much work does it actually require to tell the OC to design a play for a TE to go out eight yards and squat? Or a quick slant? I don't think 73 explains it, at least it doesn't to me.

 

[akillesheel]

Oh I think with Macks pizazz in recruiting-if he had good coordinators-we might have done something The coordinators could have recuited some good linemen, and coached

mack hired some good coordinators, and then proceeded to hamstring them with his baby-glove treatment of his nepo hires. Longo is probably responsible for two of the five best offensive seasons in UNC history, and then Mack ran him off and blamed him for Gene Chizik being bad at his job, replacing him with somebody else's yes-man who had basically never called plays before and who immediately devoted himself to the task of making the best QB we've ever had worse.

Chizik only got the DC gig because Jay Bateman accurately assessed that Tim Cross, Tommy Thigpen, and Dre Bly weren't up to the task, and Mack decided keeping his buddies around was more important than winning football games.

 

[Calheel]

I’m not exactly over the moon about Belichick either but this is way easier said than done, even with a revamped NIL budget.

It would have been a hell of a lot easier if Belichick and Lombardi didn't act like they were smarter than everybody else and didn't need help. The December recruiting window and 1st portal period were handled extremely poorly for a variety of reasons -- most of which boil down to arrogance and inexperience.

'It's made for television': How North Carolina has changed in nine months under Bill Belichick

From enlightening and exhilarating to chaotic and tumultuous, there hasn't been anything boring about Belichick at UNC.

www.espn.com

 

[rodoheel]

It would have been a hell of a lot easier if Belichick and Lombardi didn't act like they were smarter than everybody else and didn't need help. The December recruiting window and 1st portal period were handled extremely poorly for a variety of reasons -- most of which boil down to arrogance and inexperience.

'It's made for television': How North Carolina has changed in nine months under Bill Belichick

From enlightening and exhilarating to chaotic and tumultuous, there hasn't been anything boring about Belichick at UNC.

www.espn.com

Yeah part of my annoyance with all the folks on IC now saying "no need to be alarmed, this was always expected to be a multi-year rebuild, we always knew we didn't have the talent to compete this year because we got started late in the portal, Belichick is still is a genius" is that back in December/January, a lot of the same people were lapping up and regurgitating all of Belichick and Lombardi's schtick about how they had hacked college football, stars would line up to play for Belichick, we were going to be revolutionizing the sport and become the 33rd NFL franchise, etc. Maybe this whole thing will still work but the number of people suddenly going "I don't actually care if we're horrible year one, all part of the plan" is eye-roll worthy.

 

[Calheel]

Yeah part of my annoyance with all the folks on IC now saying "no need to be alarmed, this was always expected to be a multi-year rebuild, we always knew we didn't have the talent to compete this year because we got started late in the portal, Belichick is still is a genius" is that back in December/January, a lot of the same people were lapping up and regurgitating all of Belichick and Lombardi's schtick about how they had hacked college football, stars would line up to play for Belichick, we were going to be revolutionizing the sport and become the 33rd NFL franchise, etc. Maybe this whole thing will still work but the number of people suddenly going "I don't actually care if we're horrible year one, all part of the plan" is eye-roll worthy.

Right.

When there was a discussion between a traditional pick, like Matt Campbell/Jon Sumrall/Jeff Monken vs. Belichick, no one was saying that Bill would have a talent-less roster in year 1. No one was saying that he would be unable to attract coaches. No one was saying that he would be unable to attract portal players. It was the complete opposite.

Only now, when we have put an uninspired and poorly-coached product on the field for two weeks in a row do we suddenly hear noises about so-called talent problems -- as if our talent isn't at least 30 points better than Charlotte's and within a touchdown of TCU.

The fact is that the product on the field is worse than anything Mack put out there, save possibly 70 points to JMU. And at least we scored 53 points in that game and JMU was borderline top 25 at the time.

 

[CFordUNC]

Yeah, it’s been absolutely hysterical reading IC the last two weeks. Well worth the single solitary dollar I spent during the promotional period (will definitely be canceling before October 31). I have no idea how some of those people can type some of that stuff with a straight face. It reinforces my belief that for many UNC Football fans all that matters is being on the front page and on the Pat McAfee show and on SportsCenter and talked about on Gameday- it’s not actually about winning games or being “big time” in football. If it was, nobody would be trying to sugar coat the fact that in week 2 of the Belichick era we look every bit as listless as we ever did under Fedora or Mack 2.0.

 

[stankeylegjones]

Given the immense lack of talent this first year, what I'm looking for, and I guess always looking for, is does the team improve and do players improve over the course of the season. They're currently bringing in talent for later years, so can they improve the talent and start to put together really good teams? That is what will be key, obvi right. I'm going to focus on that, not the win-loss record. I know that others are more focused on winning and losing.

Having said that, I still think some of y'alls outright hatred towards BB/staff is baffling. He was hired late, took a while (for whatever reason) to hire a staff, missed the major time for wooing portal players, and so forth, so I'm not shocked that they're not world-beaters right now. Why not give him and his staff time and then reassess...once you actually have a decent amount of data?

 

[rodoheel]

Having said that, I still think some of y'alls outright hatred towards BB/staff is baffling. He was hired late, took a while (for whatever reason) to hire a staff, missed the major time for wooing portal players, and so forth, so I'm not shocked that they're not world-beaters right now. Why not give him and his staff time and then reassess...once you actually have a decent amount of data?

I have candidly thought BB was a bad hire from the start. I wouldn't say I hate him, but I do think our administration made a mistake by not only putting their faith in a 73-year-old with an ego the size of Mars and no experience in college football, but also paying an astronomical salary for the privilege. I find his smug dismissiveness, his petty grudges, his poor treatment of other people, and his hiring of friends, family, and yes-men to be off-putting and counterproductive. He could succeed in spite of all that, but i would still find it all off-putting.

I will absolutely re-assess every new piece of data we get about how his tenure is going, which is how I think everyone should approach it, but that's not going to stop me from also assessing the data we have now. Saying "we are below reasonable expectations thus far" does not preclude the possibility that we will improve. I understand why some fans liked the hire more than me, and why they feel the reflexive need to defend everything BB does as an act of genius, but I don't see why they have to act like any honest criticism of the coaching staff and where we are right now must be borne of some sort of disloyalty or "hatred" of Bill.

 

[Peppers49]

It would have been a hell of a lot easier if Belichick and Lombardi didn't act like they were smarter than everybody else and didn't need help. The December recruiting window and 1st portal period were handled extremely poorly for a variety of reasons -- most of which boil down to arrogance and inexperience.

'It's made for television': How North Carolina has changed in nine months under Bill Belichick

From enlightening and exhilarating to chaotic and tumultuous, there hasn't been anything boring about Belichick at UNC.

www.espn.com

Understand the pessimism. For the record, if it were up to me I would have pursued a more traditional coaching hire like a Jon Sumrall or Matt Campbell in the first place. I posted that article on the main UNCFB thread when it came out last week and it reinforced all of the concerns I’ve had about the hire from the beginning. If I had to bet, Belichick will fizzle out and we’ll pull the plug after year 2 or 3.

All that being said, I’m not buying that another hire would have been able to do an appreciatively better job specifically with the portal getting talent on the roster for this season. I think with the new rev share more teams were able to keep their best players and it was overall a much weaker crop of players than previous portal cycles.

 

[heel79]

You dont think i wanted to see improvement?

I wrote that poorly. I consider you a good tar heel. Speaking more about myself. I am generally half full guy.

 

[akillesheel]

Understand the pessimism. For the record, if it were up to me I would have pursued a more traditional coaching hire like a Jon Sumrall or Matt Campbell in the first place. I posted that article on the main UNCFB thread when it came out last week and it reinforced all of the concerns I’ve had about the hire from the beginning. If I had to bet, Belichick will fizzle out and we’ll pull the plug after year 2 or 3.

All that being said, I’m not buying that another hire would have been able to do an appreciatively better job specifically with the portal getting talent on the roster for this season. I think with the new rev share more teams were able to keep their best players and it was overall a much weaker crop of players than previous portal cycles.

a Sumrall or Campbell would've been able to import the guys from their roster that they liked to Chapel Hill to ease the transition, a la Deion to Colorado in 2023 (to provide the most extreme of examples). a less sanctimonious hire from outside the CFB world would likely not have run off most of the talent that was on the roster already, given that we were still in the prime years of the most successful recruiting stretch for UNC this century - maybe we lose an Atkinson to Ohio State no matter what (I'm doubtful, given how late he left), but a Shaw or even a Rodney Lora could surely have been convinced to stay and work. This hole is of Bill's own design, and it's all the more galling given that his media-trained lapdog spent the whole offseason bragging about how much success they were having on the trail (and in hiring coaches that didn't materialize, for that matter).

 

[heel79]

a Sumrall or Campbell would've been able to import the guys from their roster that they liked to Chapel Hill to ease the transition, a la Deion to Colorado in 2023 (to provide the most extreme of examples). a less sanctimonious hire from outside the CFB world would likely not have run off most of the talent that was on the roster already, given that we were still in the prime years of the most successful recruiting stretch for UNC this century - maybe we lose an Atkinson to Ohio State no matter what (I'm doubtful, given how late he left), but a Shaw or even a Rodney Lora could surely have been convinced to stay and work. This hole is of Bill's own design, and it's all the more galling given that his media-trained lapdog spent the whole offseason bragging about how much success they were having on the trail (and in hiring coaches that didn't materialize, for that matter).

Matt Campbell career win percentage is lower than macks at unc the second time. Hire that guy over belichik and get crucified. We have played 2 games. It might not work. Campbell averages 7-4 for 15 years. BB win 6 super bowls. Give it some time. Recruiting is good. That is critical

 

[stankeylegjones]

a Sumrall or Campbell would've been able to import the guys from their roster that they liked to Chapel Hill to ease the transition, a la Deion to Colorado in 2023 (to provide the most extreme of examples). a less sanctimonious hire from outside the CFB world would likely not have run off most of the talent that was on the roster already, given that we were still in the prime years of the most successful recruiting stretch for UNC this century - maybe we lose an Atkinson to Ohio State no matter what (I'm doubtful, given how late he left), but a Shaw or even a Rodney Lora could surely have been convinced to stay and work. This hole is of Bill's own design, and it's all the more galling given that his media-trained lapdog spent the whole offseason bragging about how much success they were having on the trail (and in hiring coaches that didn't materialize, for that matter).

I'm not sure you can put the "running off most of the talent" on Belichick. Most, all(?), of those players had already inked deals before Belichick was hired. Also, wasn't a big part of the reason Mack was let go was because his recruiting had dropped off?

Regarding hiring Sumrall or Campbell, I seriously doubt either of them would have secured the financial commitment that Belichick did. At the end of the day, that is what matters most to success, long term.

 

[stankeylegjones]

a Sumrall or Campbell would've been able to import the guys from their roster that they liked to Chapel Hill to ease the transition, a la Deion to Colorado in 2023 (to provide the most extreme of examples). a less sanctimonious hire from outside the CFB world would likely not have run off most of the talent that was on the roster already, given that we were still in the prime years of the most successful recruiting stretch for UNC this century - maybe we lose an Atkinson to Ohio State no matter what (I'm doubtful, given how late he left), but a Shaw or even a Rodney Lora could surely have been convinced to stay and work. This hole is of Bill's own design, and it's all the more galling given that his media-trained lapdog spent the whole offseason bragging about how much success they were having on the trail (and in hiring coaches that didn't materialize, for that matter).

Out of curiosity, do you think HD should still be the coach of the basketball team?

 

[akillesheel]

I'm not sure you can put the "running off most of the talent" on Belichick. Most, all(?), of those players had already inked deals before Belichick was hired. Also, wasn't a big part of the reason Mack was let go was because his recruiting had dropped off?

Regarding hiring Sumrall or Campbell, I seriously doubt either of them would have secured the financial commitment that Belichick did. At the end of the day, that is what matters most to success, long term.

don't get me wrong, Mack needed to go. I wanted him gone before most. What I meant was that the guys who were recruited during his best recruiting stretch are now 3rd, 4th, and 5th-year players who could form the backbone of a much more talented team than the one we have.

maybe you're right about the financial commitment. I doubt it, but maybe. what i know is that right now, we're the laughingstock of CFB for making that financial commitment and spending it on a bunch of belichick's friends and family plus a team that looks like it will struggle to be bowl-eligible, and i feel like it's just as likely that the PTB post-belichick think "well, if we couldn't be big-time with the GOAT, then what's the point?" and the purse strings close -- with all the damage done to the humanities and public goods at UNC to make this hire possible unlikely to be undone with the current BOG.

Out of curiosity, do you think HD should still be the coach of the basketball team?

I don't think he's going to be the guy who wins UNC's next championship, and i fear he's not really learning on the job like he was supposed to because this past year and the player management in the immediate aftermath have been some of his worst work yet. i do think it was justifiable to not fire him after last season and give him a hot seat year, though i'm still gobsmacked that he wasn't firmly asked to change his staff and get some new blood in.

 

[stankeylegjones]

I don't think he's going to be the guy who wins UNC's next championship, and i fear he's not really learning on the job like he was supposed to because this past year and the player management in the immediate aftermath have been some of his worst work yet. i do think it was justifiable to not fire him after last season and give him a hot seat year, though i'm still gobsmacked that he wasn't firmly asked to change his staff and get some new blood in.

This is what I can't understand. HD has had four years to prove he's the right guy at UNC and hasn't, yet you still have faith in him. While Belichick has been here for two games and you want him gone. You give the time to one yet don't the other.