US health care the worst while spending the most

Single payer would actually be less expensive than our current system.

Yeah, that's not an apples-to-apples comparison. It's frustrating to see this type of slight of hand. Look in the fine print: the cost savings come from cutting reimbursements to doctors, hospitals and pharma. Fine. Maybe that's good. But it's not a result of a switch to single-payer. It's the result of a bunch of policies strapped onto a single payer model, that have to be added for the math to work.

So it's not right to say that single-payer would be cheaper overall than our current system. It's accurate to say that single-payer can be cheaper than our current system if we also slash reimbursements. Of course, we could slash reimbursements in the current system and get the cost savings. My other posts address the policy feasibility of doing that.
 
It is interesting how insurance coverage/costs changes depending on where you live. Friend retired to his place on the water in Pamlico county from Raleigh. Blue Cross said uh-uh we don't offer your current policy there. You have a choice between these two shittier options (not their words).
I recently got coverage from the marketplace. My zip code spans multiple counties and when the local agent I worked with was getting me options, accidentally chose the wrong county. Once we corrected the error, the plan I had initially selected was no longer available because BCBS doesn't offer it in my county. But if I lived approximately 7 miles away, I would have been eligible for it.
 
Define cheaper. If you mean cheaper per person or something like that, yes. If you mean that we would spend less on healthcare if we went to a universal health care system -- well, link please. Note that one of the arguments about American health care is that doctors make too much money. Fine. We'll get to that in a bit. But when people bake an assumption about doctors' salaries into the model, it's not sound methodology. You can't say, "if we had universal healthcare, we'd spend less overall because doctors would make less money in my system." That's changing a parameter.

There are two major problems with the idea that "doctors make too much money and we could reduce health care costs by reducing doctors' pay":

1. Education in the US is so expensive for would-be doctors. I dated an Austrian woman for a while, who was 25 or 26 and already had her MD, and had been doing research in the states for a year or so when I met her. So, was she some sort of genius? Not really. It's just that you can study medicine as an undergrad in Austria. I don't know if that's true everywhere in Europe, but it is in some other countries as well. And in most places, undergrad is subsidized to a cost not unlike UNC in the 1980s or 1990s.

So she had zero debt coming out of med school. Again, not because she was super-brilliant or had earned scholarships or anything of the sort. She just lived in a system that made her education inexpensive.

Compare to physicians in the U.S., who have to complete a four year degree to the tune of 100K+ or more, and then pay $200K for medical school. My wife is a psychiatrist and she was still paying off her med school loans after age 50. In fact, she never finished paying them off; she benefited from Biden's first loan forgiveness program (which was styled as a "fix" to an error in the income based repayment program but was really a forgiveness). She would not have been able to make ends meet with a $150K salary, and she's not a big spender.

If we want doctors' salaries to go down, then we have to fix the education costs. Ain't nobody going to pay for an undergrad degree, then a med school degree, then do a residency, only for the opportunity to make $120K after all that. We really should consider whether an undergrad degree is necessary, or if universities can offer hybrid programs that do undergrad and medical at the same time. A 6 year plan, instead of 8. This is definitely true for law school, which does not need undergrad in any way and is probably too long in its own right. Law could easily be a 5 year undergrad major.

2. There's also the Baumol effect. I've mentioned it elsewhere, but I'll recap. Jobs requiring roughly equal skill will end up with roughly equal compensation. It doesn't have to be the same, but roughly equal. Otherwise, nobody goes into the lower compensation field, and then there are shortages, and that causes prices in that field to rise. I've seen it with psychiatry. My wife's compensation has gone way up in the last 6 or 6 years, because for years and years psychiatrists were paid much less than other physicians. They were paid especially less well than dermatologists and cosmetic surgeons, which has always bugged the hell out of me. Well, anyway, med school grads weren't going into psychiatry, so there are shortages everywhere, and now psychiatrists make more. Not because their productivity has increased, but because competitor fields have.

This is true within the medical field, and just as true (or perhaps more) when comparing with other professions. Even with today's salaries, a lot of doctors feel as though they are underpaid, which is why they leave the profession and go into business. Private equity has been investing heavily in medicine, and there are always doctors as CEOs or top execs in these firms. Doctors can make more money going into pharma, or as professional expert witnesses, etc.

And while there's not a lot of doctors who take up law, that is absolutely a choice that many people make when they are young. If you want to be wealthy or even borderline wealthy, law is a much better choice than medicine. It's not even close. Keep in mind that med school admission is more selective than law school admissions for a number of reasons. So we can't compare the salaries of lawyers from Tier 4 schools to doctor salaries. Anyone who can get into med school would be able to get into a Tier 2 law school at a minimum, and probably Tier 1. And in that cohort, law definitely pays really well.

So, ironically, it's hard to lower doctor salaries if we don't lower lawyer salaries. If we wanted to reduce health care costs, one way to do it would be to eliminate income taxes for doctors, while decreasing reimbursements that they receive. Basically, pay them $150K a year instead of $300K a year, but the $150K is tax-free and so that helps equalize.

3. Unless we fix our doctor compensation issues, we aren't going to make a huge dent in our medical costs. There are plenty of other costs in the system, but doctor compensation is a huge reason why health care is more expensive than in Europe.

When I was much younger, I used to disregard this effect. Oh no, I would think, a doctor has to make do with a $200K salary instead of $300K -- how will they ever survive? That's true on an individual level for sure. My family would have been just fine if my father the surgeon had make 75% of what he actually made. But as a public policy matter, asking doctors to just eat lower pay is a bad solution. It won't work.
So how do we get to comprehensive universal coverage without doctor pay taking a hit?
 
It is interesting how insurance coverage/costs changes depending on where you live. Friend retired to his place on the water in Pamlico county from Raleigh. Blue Cross said uh-uh we don't offer your current policy there. You have a choice between these two shittier options (not their words).

Possibly has to do with the providers that are available and willing to strike a deal with BCBS in the area. The triangle has two med schools and places that doctors want to live during their child rearing years. There is more healthcare supply.

Pamlico has places that people want to retire to but not as many doctors want to raise their kids there. Medicine is one of the few professions where you can make more money in rural areas and its because the supply is limited.
 
So how do we get to comprehensive universal coverage without doctor pay taking a hit?
1. Spend more money. But that's what you're trying to avoid, because American voters have made clear that they don't want to spend more so that other people can get health care (in some cases, not even to get much better insurance but that's a different story).

2. Fix the cost drivers on the physician side. Make med school free or close to free. Set up programs where a full undergrad degree is not needed to start med school.

3. Here's the thing. The Baumol effect predicts that public service goods will become increasingly more expensive, because they are basically not amenable to productivity improvements in the same way that, say, manufacturing is. We can invest in health care technology that improves diagnoses, makes doctors more efficient, etc. -- but at the end of the day, people still need to be seen by a physician. And a physician can only see X patients per hour. I've not seen X lower than four. For my wife, it used to be 2 and is now 3. You can't build an assembly line and layoff half the assembly line to cut costs. You can't outsource to sweatshops.

So in a sense, we're stuck with services that appear to grow more expensive over time, but that's in part in comparison to other things. We spend more of our GDP on health care than we used to, but that's in part because we spend less money on things that have gotten cheaper. We spend way less on computer hardware than we used to; much less on TVs; etc.

And a rich country should be able to afford that. The best way to finance universal health care is taxes on upper incomes. We already saw that a bit with Obamacare. Unfortunately, we have the GOP to block that.

4. Sometimes problems aren't solvable. Let's assume that you're right, and we can't get to comprehensive universal coverage without hitting doctor pay. Well, that probably means that we can't get to universal coverage, because our system with lower doctor compensation would quickly become a worse system. It would be like the UK system which, as you might have noticed, is doing pretty crappy right now. And one of the reasons it's crappy is that they have been losing doctors to the US for a long time. Fully half of my dad's residents were physicians from England or Ireland who did their education abroad, and were coming to the U.S. to make money.
 
Its extremely frustrating. How can we spend so much and get poor results?
That's a very complicated question, but there are a few simple answers that explain a good portion of it (at a high level)...

- We spend a lot on care to solve medical issues once they occur but we do really poorly on preventative care
- Americans expect to be able to do things that significantly harm their health (especially processed foods and lack of exercise) and then expect medicine to save/treat them
- We focus a good bit on creating and utilizing the latest/greatest in care to treat problems in new and better ways
- We privatize the expense of expense of creating both new medical professionals and medical solutions which leads to those professionals/solutions being profit-driven once a part of patient care

What we've created is a system that is likely the best in the world at driving innovation and addressing some of the most difficult medical problems, but also creates high costs across the board while systematically ignoring or not addressing the main drivers of ill health in our nation (which is in many ways outside of the medical field altogether).
 
1. Spend more money. But that's what you're trying to avoid, because American voters have made clear that they don't want to spend more so that other people can get health care (in some cases, not even to get much better insurance but that's a different story).

2. Fix the cost drivers on the physician side. Make med school free or close to free. Set up programs where a full undergrad degree is not needed to start med school.

3. Here's the thing. The Baumol effect predicts that public service goods will become increasingly more expensive, because they are basically not amenable to productivity improvements in the same way that, say, manufacturing is. We can invest in health care technology that improves diagnoses, makes doctors more efficient, etc. -- but at the end of the day, people still need to be seen by a physician. And a physician can only see X patients per hour. I've not seen X lower than four. For my wife, it used to be 2 and is now 3. You can't build an assembly line and layoff half the assembly line to cut costs. You can't outsource to sweatshops.

So in a sense, we're stuck with services that appear to grow more expensive over time, but that's in part in comparison to other things. We spend more of our GDP on health care than we used to, but that's in part because we spend less money on things that have gotten cheaper. We spend way less on computer hardware than we used to; much less on TVs; etc.

And a rich country should be able to afford that. The best way to finance universal health care is taxes on upper incomes. We already saw that a bit with Obamacare. Unfortunately, we have the GOP to block that.

4. Sometimes problems aren't solvable. Let's assume that you're right, and we can't get to comprehensive universal coverage without hitting doctor pay. Well, that probably means that we can't get to universal coverage, because our system with lower doctor compensation would quickly become a worse system. It would be like the UK system which, as you might have noticed, is doing pretty crappy right now. And one of the reasons it's crappy is that they have been losing doctors to the US for a long time. Fully half of my dad's residents were physicians from England or Ireland who did their education abroad, and were coming to the U.S. to make money.
I guess it just isn’t helpful to look at these things in a vacuum. When I propose that we need universal healthcare, you have my permission to assume that I’m also for higher taxes on the wealthy to help pay for it and universal education.

If the problem isn’t solvable, we have to figure out our priorities as a society.

Do we want doctors making slightly less while everyone has healthcare, or do we want the shitty system we have now while doctors make more?
 
Speaking for my 70 year old self I can say those negative health care trends I have are my own doing. I can also say I know a lot of people in a couple of States that live in Health Care "deserts" and or just can't afford good Health care
I knew a gentleman that died a few years ago who got almost zero Health care in retirement. He turned down Medicare because he knew it owuld impact his lifeline Soc Sec $ ...Now he could have gotten Medicaid/Medicare-but that was too complicated........

There are definitely problems with the system.
 
It is interesting how insurance coverage/costs changes depending on where you live. Friend retired to his place on the water in Pamlico county from Raleigh. Blue Cross said uh-uh we don't offer your current policy there. You have a choice between these two shittier options (not their words).
BC/BS has an enourmous share of the Market in NC At one point I think it was 80% of the private market Thats not real healthy I think in Pamlico it may be the ONLY insurer offering an individual coverage
 
I guess it just isn’t helpful to look at these things in a vacuum. When I propose that we need universal healthcare, you have my permission to assume that I’m also for higher taxes on the wealthy to help pay for it and universal education.

If the problem isn’t solvable, we have to figure out our priorities as a society.

Do we want doctors making slightly less while everyone has healthcare, or do we want the shitty system we have now while doctors make more?
Well, that's fine to package taxes and other measures into a policy idea. Just don't say that universal health care will be cheaper in the aggregate, because by your own admission, that's not true. And does it even matter that much? The government would end up spending more money, but it will be cheaper for everyone. Health insurance has gotten per-capita cheaper than it was (when you adjust for quality of insurance coverage) after Obamacare. That should be the selling point: it will be cheaper per person, even if it's more expensive overall because more people are getting more care.

The "problem" I was referring to was the problem of providing universal care for less expenditure. That problem won't be solved by slashing physician reimbursements. In the short-term it might do something but we would be creating a worse system overall. Low pay brought down the quality of our school teachers. We don't want it to do the same for physicians.

If you want to define the problem as "providing universal care," that's doable. Let's not lie about what would be required, though. BTW I'm not saying that physician reimbursement is perfect. Far from it. There are reforms that could be enacted to make the system a bit more rational. But I just don't think there's a lot of room to continue cutting physician compensation in the aggregate while maintaining quality.

Look, I'm married to a psychiatrist so I admit that have some skin in the game on this issue But my views here predate meeting my wife. They also postdate Obamacare. I learned a few things from Obamacare. I think everyone learned some things from Obamacare. I happen to think that Obamacare was a great start. It was never intended to be the end point, and I don't think it will be. But it will take some time. Obamacare itself was decades in the making.

I just don't think the choice should be "doctors making slightly less" or "the system we have now." We could have a system in which doctors don't have to take a pay cut. We'd have to find that money somewhere else. There are lots of places to find it. There's a LOT of potential government revenue (and cost savings) that goes untapped. That's the political challenge. Saying that we don't need to do that because universal care pays for itself is not helpful to that cause, I think.
 
We need more-lots more-Physicians
We don't need Physicians getting of Med School with big debt . For starters it means planning to be a Physicans is something way under represented by students that are not from monied families-so we miss out on potential Docs. Secondly for those that go into debt they almost "have to " go into some high paying speciality -so we limit the number of GPs etc
Supply and Demand is a real bitch and we need to get a better grip When I was young man "reading film" was a low paying job for an MD Now with all the imaging technology it has become very high paying . Dermatolgy is now very well paid-it was not that way 30 years ago As Super pointed out Psychiatry pay is now pretty good-not the case 30 yrs ago-maybe even 10. A dozen years ago my father had Heart surgery at UNC-the State Hospital. There was 1 freaking Heart surgeon ( I think Duke would suck up any that were good) . Hospitals now have pretty well paid "hospitalists"superimposed on top of every ones Attending Physician-I guess part of it is to manage insurance limits-potential law suits???
There are tons of issues unresolved in planning Med school expansion . Demand was WAY unpredicted by those planning the number of Med School slots 20 years ago-Folks with good insurance go and see an Orthopaedic surgeon when their finger hurts How many older folks do you know today that get a new knee or Hip? ( A lot the month they become eligible for Medicare ) Medicaid expansion means lots of folks go to various types Docs that never did.
We need lots more doctors
And of course we need lots more Doctors in places that are economically depressed-which geographically is the majority of the country-think Red Counties
 
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We need more-lots more-Physicians
We don't need Physicians getting of Med School with big debt . For starters it means planning to be a Physicans is something way under represented by students that are not from monied families-so we miss out on potential Docs. Secondly for those that go into debt they almost "have to " go into some high paying speciality -so we limit the number of GPs etc
Supply and Demand is a real bitch and we need to get a better grip When I was young man "reading film" was a low paying job for an MD Now with all the imaging technology it has become very high paying . Dermatolgy is now very well paid-it was not that way 30 years ago As Super pointed out Psychiatry pay is now pretty good-not the case 30 yrs ago-maybe even 10. A dozen years ago my father had Heart surgery at UNC-the State Hospital. There was 1 feaking Heart surgeon ( I think Duke would suck up any that were good) . Hospitals now have pretty well paid "hospitalists"superimposed on top of every ones Attending Physician-I guess part of it is to manage insurance limits-potential law suits???
There are tons of issues unresolved in planning Med school expansion . Demand was WAY unpredicted by those planning the number of Med School slots 20 years ago-Folks with good insurance go and see an Orthopaedic surgeon when their finger hurts How many older folks do you know today that get a new knee or Hip? ( A lot the month they become eligible for Medicare ) Medicaid expansion means lots of folks go to various types Docs that never did.
We need lots more doctors
And of course we need lots more Doctors in places that are economically depressed-which geographically is the majority of the country-think Red Counties
Yes. I am all for state med schools to offer graduated scolarships/free rides to those willing to practice ss a GP in Sampson Co. or equivilent for x years. Then if they want to go back to school and specialize, same deal. After x years they can move wherever they want free of debt. Northern Exposure kind of deal.
 
Yes. I am all for state med schools to offer graduated scolarships/free rides to those willing to practice ss a GP in Sampson Co. or equivilent for x years. Then if they want to go back to school and specialize, same deal. After x years they can move wherever they want free of debt. Northern Exposure kind of deal.
There are federal programs like this, which is how Muslims end up moving to rural white areas in BFE.
 
There are federal programs like this, which is how Muslims end up moving to rural white areas in BFE.
There not many programs that pay your tuition as you go. There are some that will pay off your debt if you work in undeserved areas..by then the many obstacles to Med School have shunned away potential students who are skeeered of the debt
 
There not many programs that pay your tuition as you go. There are some that will pay off your debt if you work in undeserved areas..by then the many obstacles to Med School have shunned away potential students who are skeeered of the debt
That's right. It's debt forgiveness.
 
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