US strikes Venezuela / Captures Maduro

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BlooVooDoo said:
Help me understand this in relation to your previous post. I mean, is it about keeping adversaries from influencing Venezuelan policy as you emphasized previously, or is it about bringing a fugitive to justice as you’ve indicated here?
The US, under leadership from both parties, has protected criminals from other countries quite often. Is it okay if those nations conduct covert operations or take military action to retrieve said criminals and bring them to justice?
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Its about both. Doesn't have to be one or the other. No, but those criminals aren't dictators and illegitimate heads of state. Again, I think you guys are trying to apply a philosophical principle that is black and white and fails to allow for any nuance, and the world doesn't work that way. In my opinion, I think the left's disapproval is very much influenced by the dislike for trump. If obama or biden had done the same thing I don't think there would be much disapproval. In the end, the world is a safer place, russia will find it harder to generate revenue to fund its war, china and russia won't set up satellite offices 1300 miles from our coast, and neither will gain access to the largest oil deposits in the world.
 
lawtig02 said:
That is not even remotely clear at this point. There's a very high probability this ends up helping Russia.
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Yeah, taking out Maduro hurts Russia in the immediate term (emphasizing their weakness) but the “Donroe Doctrine” it represents appears extremely beneficial to Russia in the medium and long term. TBD the impact of leaving Team Maduro in power in Venezuela on Russia, Venezuela or anyone else.
 
Go back and check the tape.

The last 5 full pages of this thread have been 50% posts from users who should be ignored.

The other 50% were posts from users who know better but can't help taking the bait and replying to posters who should be ignored.

Friendly reminder... TROLLS DON'T WIN BY HAVING BETTER FACTS/OPINIONS THAN YOU. THEY WIN BY GOADING YOU INTO ENGAGING WITH THEM.

And the bait they use is posting purposefully stoopid easily refutable nonsense. So when you're replying "Ha I got ya this time" they are the one who are actually getting you.

The only way to win is to refuse to play.
 
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Callatoroy said:
You are applying a philosophical, very broad, principle to a situation that is driven by nuance.

We completely agree on your comment about world order. However, there exceptions when that world order threatens our national security and aids russia in continuing its war with ukraine.
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I don't really think what I'm saying is any more or less "philosophical" than you are. I simply don't agree that anyone can really explain in a logical matter how (1) the pre-attack situation in Venezuela was an imminent threat to our national security, and/or (2) how our arrest of Maduro for drug trafficking somehow rectifies that. Nor do I think that it can be described as anything other than an act of war for our country to use military force to attempt to take control over/influence the policy of another country, and in particular to gain control of its natural resources.

All wars, in theory, can be justified on the basis that there was a threat to national security. Trump and his key advisors are already publicly making that exact argument when it comes to Greenland. Somehow I don't think even you are crazy enough to argue that Russia or China doing business with Greenland (which is not happening) would justify the US invading and/or taking control of Greenland's national resources. Nor do I think you would argue that Putin's invasion of Ukraine is justified, even though Russia's justification for that invasion is exactly the logic you are saying is appropriate when employed by Trump.
 
Callatoroy said:
Yet trump taking out madura hurts russia, not helps it. Go figure.
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Do you really believe that?

Donald Trump is, at this very moment, posturing to exert control of the Western Hemisphere. This will open the door for China to do the same in Asia and Russia in Europe.

Decades of alliances will be shattered so three nuclear powers can carve up the world into spheres of influence.

This is exactly what Putin must dream about when he hits his pillow every night.

And if any of these smaller countries get out of line? They’ll have to answer to the big boy countries with nukes. Until, they decide they need to acquire their own nukes to protect themselves.
 
Ddseddse said:
Go back and check the tape.

The last 5 full pages of this thread have been 50% posts from users who should be ignored.

The other 50% were posts from users who know better but can't help taking the bait and replying to posters who should be ignored.

Freindly reminder... TROLLS DON'T WIN BY HAVING BETTER FACTS/OPIONS THAN YOU. THEY WIN BY GOADING YOU INTO ENGAING WITH THEM.
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I wouldn't put calla's comments in that category. I disagree with him but it's legitimate and reasonable discussion.
 
Callatoroy said:
If obama or biden had done the same thing I don't think there would be much disapproval.
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Yes there would. There is no real parallel for this is anything either Biden or Obama ever did. Trump is openly saying that we attacked another nation to secure control of its natural resources. This is not simply about bringing down Maduro, or bringing him to justice. There are legitimate ways to accomplish those things - just like in the case of the former president of Honduras who was properly extradited to the US, tried and convicted for smuggling hundreds of tons of drugs into the US (before Trump inexplicably - read: was bribed - pardoned him).
 
Ddseddse said:
Go back and check the tape.

The last 5 full pages of this thread have been 50% posts from users who should be ignored.

The other 50% were posts from users who know better but can't help taking the bait and replying to posters who should be ignored.

Freindly reminder... TROLLS DON'T WIN BY HAVING BETTER FACTS/OPIONS THAN YOU. THEY WIN BY GOADING YOU INTO ENGAING WITH THEM.

And the bait they use is posting purposefully stoopid easily refutable nonsense. So when you're replying "Ha I got ya this time" they are the one who age actully getting you.

The only way to win is to refuse to play.
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Fits a negative stereotype and is the exact opposite of what should be done. Maybe try not getting so worked up by another's opinion that you don't cover your ears, close your eyes, and yell blah, blah, blah, blah.
 
lawtig02 said:
All probabilities are based on assumptions.
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Correct. But the degree of confidence of something being high or low places more or less importance on those assumptions. Based on how things stand today, it is a pretty big stretch and overreliance on those assumptions to say there is a high probability of trump's actions benefiting putin. Of course it is trump so that could change tomorrow, but as of 2:14 pm on jan 6, 2026, things don't look like a benefit to putin.
 
Callatoroy said:
Possibility? Yes. High probability? Not sure how you can make that claim given its all based on assumption.
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Our justification that we can do whatever we like in our back yard (really, in our neighborhood, in the homes and yards of our neighbors) is exactly what Putin wants to do in his back yard.

We're reordering the global security environment to gift him this opportunity.

To use your parlance from bridge, Maduro is a save bid for Putin. It may be a little painful short term but it's setting up a much bigger win down the road.
 
Callatoroy said:
Correct. But the degree of confidence of something being high or low places more or less importance on those assumptions. Based on how things stand today, it is a pretty big stretch and overreliance on those assumptions to say there is a high probability of trump's actions benefiting putin. Of course it is trump so that could change tomorrow, but as of 2:14 pm on jan 6, 2026, things don't look like a benefit to putin.
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Does "how things stand today" include the fact that virtually every foreign policy Trump has made in his five years as president has benefited Putin?
 
Callatoroy said:
Correct. But the degree of confidence of something being high or low places more or less importance on those assumptions. Based on how things stand today, it is a pretty big stretch and overreliance on those assumptions to say there is a high probability of trump's actions benefiting putin. Of course it is trump so that could change tomorrow, but as of 2:14 pm on jan 6, 2026, things don't look like a benefit to putin.
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I’d agree with you if I thought Trump, or even handful of people around him, knew what they were doing and wanted to weaken Putin and/or Russia. The immediate affect certainly puts Putin in a bind but that will be brief unless the US seeks to maximize the effect by further winnowing channels of Russian influence. Do you expect that to happen?
 
WaynetheDrain said:
Do you really believe that?

Donald Trump is, at this very moment, posturing to exert control of the Western Hemisphere. This will open the door for China to do the same in Asia and Russia in Europe.

Decades of alliances will be shattered so three nuclear powers can carve up the world into spheres of influence.

This is exactly what Putin must dream about when he hits his pillow every night.

And if any of these smaller countries get out of line? They’ll have to answer to the big boy countries with nukes. Until, they decide they need to acquire their own nukes to protect themselves.
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I do believe that. I also see how you came to your opinion. However, the likelihood of that happening is mitigated by the economic and military realities of today. I do believe what you are claiming would be more of a possibility if we had invaded / occupied Ven. But the reality is that we snatched an indicted criminal. As I said before, I'm much more worried about what's to come vs what has transpired so far.
 
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