War on Universities, Lawyers & Expertise

[heelinhell]

no big deal just apply to Regent Law school

Regent was founded by the great Pat Robertson

almost 50% of applicants are accepted

Tuition and fees are only 43k

Ranked tied for 94th out of 195 best law schools by USNWR

GOPer administrations love and hire Regent law graduates by the dozens

Located in beautiful Virginia Beach, VA

https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/regent-university-03172#:~:text=Its%20tuition%20is%20full%2Dtime,faculty%20ratio%20is%2010:1.

Conservative Catholic Law School Ave- Maria is another option

It's a smidge over 50k in tuition and fees

Ranked #153 out of 195 best law schools

Easier to be accepted with a 53% acceptance rate

Located in even more beautiful Naples, Fla

https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/ave-maria-school-of-law-03188

but conservative Liberty Law School is maybe the best deal

Tuition and fees 44k

Acceptance rate 59%

Ranked tied at #141 out of 195 best law schools

only downside is it is not located on the beach

https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/liberty-university-03196

 

[Calheel]

Previously grad students could take two different loans. Direct Unsubsidized loans are capped at $20.5K annually with a $138.5K max. Grad Plus loans were capped at cost of attendance but are higher cost loans.

The BBB will phase out grad plus loans and institute a lifetime federal loan cap of $257K for undergrad, grad, and professional school combined.
Non-professional degree loans will be capped at $100K lifetime.
Professional school loans will be capped at $50K annually and $200K lifetime.

The Parent Plus loans are also being limited to $20K/yr and $65K lifetime per student. PP loans are not good loans for a number of reasons. I’ve recommended parents consider a HELOC if they have the option as a way of meeting needs beyond Direct Loans. But these caps are silly.

The combined effect of all of these changes is going make grad school untenable or extremely expensive for a substantial percentage of students. Thank god they didn’t change undergrad limits which are already very modest.

So private loans are not capped, correct? This is just federal subsidized loans?

 

[nycfan]

 

[BlooVooDoo]

So private loans are not capped, correct? This is just federal subsidized loans?

Unsubsidized federal loans. IIRC, there are essentially no subsidized graduate loans. I think some students may be eligible for modest subsidized loans, but only under very specific circumstances.
Private education loans are not capped, but are very undesirable as loans go. For borrowers with even good credit, rates can be ~15% or more.

 

[Calheel]

Unsubsidized federal loans. IIRC, there are essentially no subsidized graduate loans. I think some students may be eligible for modest subsidized loans, but only under very specific circumstances.
Private education loans are not capped, but are very undesirable as loans go. For borrowers with even good credit, rates can be ~15% or more.

Aren’t these loans that you don’t need to payback while in school?

 

[BlooVooDoo]

Aren’t these loans that you don’t need to payback while in school?

Yes, but that’s not what subsidized means wrt student loans. The interest accrues while you’re in school. The government pays interest for subsidized loans.

 

[superrific]

Aren’t these loans that you don’t need to payback while in school?

I don't know shit about student loans as I've never taken one out, but I thought the federal loan guarantees were a form of subsidy.

 

[Calheel]

Yes, but that’s not what subsidized means wrt student loans. The interest accrues while you’re in school. The government pays interest for subsidized loans.

Gotcha.

So law students are going to have to turn to private loans to fund school, which will limit the number of poor kids and will require law schools to grant more aid and/or slow tuition increases going forward.

 

[superrific]

Gotcha.

So law students are going to have to turn to private loans to fund school, which will limit the number of poor kids and will require law schools to grant more aid and/or slow tuition increases going forward.

I suspect a lot of law schools will close. Which wouldn't be a bad thing, really. We've gotten a first hand look at the quality of a Mercer law education.

 

[BlooVooDoo]

Gotcha.

So law students are going to have to turn to private loans to fund school, which will limit the number of poor kids and will require law schools to grant more aid and/or slow tuition increases going forward.

What’s the typical law school tuition, $50k/yr? Add another $25k for living expenses so yeah, $75k for private loans at 15% on top of $150k in federal loans. Medical school will be even worse.

 

[BlooVooDoo]

I suspect a lot of law schools will close. Which wouldn't be a bad thing, really. We've gotten a first hand look at the quality of a Mercer law education.

 

[superrific]

What’s the typical law school tuition, $50k/yr? Add another $25k for living expenses so yeah, $75k for private loans at 15% on top of $150k in federal loans. Medical school will be even worse.

Oh, we wish. Harvard is 80K a year. So is Dook. U of M is 75 for out of state. OSU is about 50K per year.

U of T is $56K per year in tuition. Berkeley is 62K resident and 75K out of state.

 

[Calheel]

Oh, we wish. Harvard is 80K a year. So is Dook. U of M is 75 for out of state. OSU is about 50K per year.

U of T is $56K per year in tuition. Berkeley is 62K resident and 75K out of state.

A very good argument could be made that subsidized student loans are the single biggest contributor to the rate of increase of tuition.

 

[BlooVooDoo]

A very good argument could be made that subsidized student loans are the single biggest contributor to the rate of increase of tuition.

Graduate loans generally aren’t subsidized. Subsidized undergrad loans cap out at $27k for 4 years. I doubt zero interest on $27k is contributing much to tuition increases.

 

[BlooVooDoo]

Oh, we wish. Harvard is 80K a year. So is Dook. U of M is 75 for out of state. OSU is about 50K per year.

U of T is $56K per year in tuition. Berkeley is 62K resident and 75K out of state.

I understand there’s a wide range, but most lawyers aren’t studying at T14 programs. I was spitballing an average and I may well have missed. I doubt it’s lower than $50k/yr.

 

[Calheel]

Graduate loans generally aren’t subsidized. Subsidized undergrad loans cap out at $27k for 4 years. I doubt zero interest on $27k is contributing much to tuition increases.

I wasn't specifically limiting my above comment to grad school (although I understand it appeared that way in context in reply to Super)

But as for grad schools, I guess this gets to Super's issue as to what qualifies as a subsidy (as opposed to the "subsidized" terms used by Dept of Ed). If the students now need to borrow in the purely private marketplace at higher interest rates, it will likely put pressure on grad schools to limit tuition increases.

 

[superrific]

A very good argument could be made that subsidized student loans are the single biggest contributor to the rate of increase of tuition.

I wouldn't say it's very good. The Baumol effect is the more likely explanation, imo. There has been a little bit of empirical work, mostly saying that Baumol is 30-50% of the cost increase, but the research is low quality and I don't they they are measuring the same thing. Those studies are testing Baumol explanation versus Bowen explanation (i.e. that universities maximize revenue and then spend it), but it's not apples to apples because Bowen explanation includes all revenue sources and can't really explain rising tuition as opposed to rising costs.

Law professors cost more than they used to, because the opportunity cost for a law professor is very high. Most professors could be working at white shoe law firms (and many moonlight there), where they'd be pulling in 7 figures or close to it. So $125K salary for a law prof just ain't gonna cut it anymore. That's the main cost driver -- higher salary levels, even more than more professors.

 

[BlooVooDoo]

I wasn't specifically focusing on grad school in my above comment.

But as for grad schools, I guess this gets to Super's issue as to what qualifies as a subsidy. If the students now need to borrow in the purely private marketplace at higher interest rates, it will likely put pressure on grad schools to limit tuition increases.

The guaranteed loans super mentioned ended 10-15 years ago. Given that student loan debt isn’t dischargeable in bankruptcy, I think arguments of what constitute a subsidy might cut both ways.
The loan >>> tuition increase trope has been beaten to death, yet it persists. I understand why to an extent - availability of credit no doubt influences other market sectors - but the dynamics of college finances, particularly public colleges, are such that the ability to borrow modest amounts of money are insignificant compared to other factors.
If it’s of interest, there’s some good data and analysis at the delta cost project.

 

[Calheel]

I wouldn't say it's very good. The Baumol effect is the more likely explanation, imo. There has been a little bit of empirical work, mostly saying that Baumol is 30-50% of the cost increase, but the research is low quality and I don't they they are measuring the same thing. Those studies are testing Baumol explanation versus Bowen explanation (i.e. that universities maximize revenue and then spend it), but it's not apples to apples because Bowen explanation includes all revenue sources and can't really explain rising tuition as opposed to rising costs.

Law professors cost more than they used to, because the opportunity cost for a law professor is very high. Most professors could be working at white shoe law firms (and many moonlight there), where they'd be pulling in 7 figures or close to it. So $125K salary for a law prof just ain't gonna cut it anymore. That's the main cost driver -- higher salary levels, even more than more professors.

Not just law school - undergrad too.

 

[BlooVooDoo]

Not just law school - undergrad too.

Look at state funding for public schools (per FTE) over the last 50 years.