what exactly is the significance of the n word

[superrific]

It's funny, I was thinking about this over the weekend and now the politico article has made it somewhat relevant.

What does it mean when someone uses the n word? Let me specify. Obviously I am not talking about hip hop artists, etc. Also, people whose actions are obviously racist in other aspects are easy to figure out. I don't need Trump saying the n word to know exactly what he thinks of black people.

But here's an example of what I mean. In the 80s, after the mega success of their debut album, Guns N Roses released a sort of weird EP that, IIRC, was mostly acoustic. One of the songs featured the line, "police and n***s, that's right, get out of my way." As a young teen, I liked GnR but was troubled by this line, as you might expect. Then I saw an interview where Axl Rose explained that he wasn't talking about all black people, just a category of black people who deserved the epithet. I found the distinction to be extremely suspicious but I accepted it at the time because it relieved my cognitive dissonance. He wasn't racist; he was just stereotyping while expressing his emotions. Hey, I was either pre-pubescent or barely pubescent so I definitely get the benefit of "I was young" and also I never sang along. Anyway:

I'm pretty sure Axl Rose was/is not a hardcore racist. I think he was looking for attention. Bands sometimes do that. He knew there was something wrong with saying it, but he wanted to say it anyway because rebellion and 'you can't tell me what to do' etc. Hence the interjection, "that's right." He knew what he was doing/saying. So what should we make of that? I don't think it's in the same ballpark as Sex Pistols' God Save The Queen, which was also about smashing convention but in a different and far more acceptable way. It's also short of skinhead racism. Obviously, at a minimum, it was evidence that he was willing to use racism to gain attention, which is, shall we say, considerably less than ideal. But what else does it signify? What does it signify that he would do so?

And what does it signify that people enjoyed that music? I'm not talking here about young kids, but rather adults. I mean, as a young *man* I liked music with pretty gruesome lyrics, though I've usually drawn a line at blatant racism (assuming the lyrics are intelligible; sometimes they aren't and then I didn't much care, even if in some sense I should have). And I still like Big Black, whose lyrics can be misogynist, sometimes extremely so. There my cognitive dissonance was eased by personal testimony from the feminist band Band of Susans, who assured me that Steve Albini wasn't really like that and it was just an act. That is admittedly pretty weak sauce, but it's my private life and I can easily cabin that off. It did bother me enough that I asked the Band Of Susans about it.

I don't have a lot of experience with this, nor any good sense of the relevant sociology. There are people here with far better perspective. I'm hoping to learn. In some sense, this is an academic exercise: one could go through life with a principle of "don't say the n word and don't associate with people who do" and not be sorry for it. For most of us, that's good enough. Still, perspectives welcomed.

 

[dukeman92]

 

[superrific]

Thank you for the intelligent and thoughtful reply. It's good that you weighed in. Is that what they taught you at dook? BTW, 95% of the times I've seen the n-word in print, it was scrawled on a surface in Perkins Library -- the cubbies, the stacks, the walls. Anywhere a pencil or pen could leave a mark, a dookie scrawled the n-word. If 92 is when you graduated, that was your time.

 

[4thgenheel]

one could go through life with a principle of "don't say the n word and don't associate with people who do" and not be sorry for it. For most of us, that's good enough.

this is where i am with it. it's a derogatory slur unless being used amongst black folks in a collegial way and those situations are really none of my (our, fellow white folks) business.

 

[dukeman92]

Thank you for the intelligent and thoughtful reply. It's good that you weighed in. Is that what they taught you at dook? BTW, 95% of the times I've seen the n-word in print, it was scrawled on a surface in Perkins Library -- the cubbies, the stacks, the walls. Anywhere a pencil or pen could leave a mark, a dookie scrawled the n-word. If 92 is when you graduated, that was your time.

 

[superrific]

Maybe you should pay attention to the topic, given that the n-word is a direct reflection on your alma mater and your degree.

Let me add that I've been in a lot of university libraries, mostly around the same time. UNC, NCSU, Princeton, Columbia, Harvard, Rutgers, among others. Perkins had orders of magnitude more nasty disgusting racism than all of them combined. Yes, including NCSU.

I've been in every punk rock and metal club in New York City. There was some nasty shit written on the bathrooms of those clubs, but Perkins was considerably worse in volume and tone. And that's to say nothing of the lewd and despicable scrawlings about your female chancellor, who was apparently not well beloved by at least some of the students. Or maybe tremendously loved, given how many people seemingly wanted her to suck their dicks.

 

[dukeman92]

Maybe you should pay attention to the topic, given that the n-word is a direct reflection on your alma mater and your degree.

Let me add that I've been in a lot of university libraries, mostly around the same time. UNC, NCSU, Princeton, Columbia, Harvard, Rutgers, among others. Perkins had orders of magnitude more nasty disgusting racism than all of them combined. Yes, including NCSU.

I've been in every punk rock and metal club in New York City. There was some nasty shit written on the bathrooms of those clubs, but Perkins was considerably worse in volume and tone. And that's to say nothing of the lewd and despicable scrawlings about your female chancellor, who was apparently not well beloved by at least some of the students. Or maybe tremendously loved, given how many people seemingly wanted her to suck their dicks.

 

[NYCBlueBlood]

I don't see any scenario where any non-black person can/should use the n-word. While it still makes me a bit uncomfortable when black people do use it, I understand that's the point... and recognize that's my problem for being uncomfortable and not theirs for using it. I applaud people for taking it back and using it to their advantage. There is power in that, and every reason to take/ use that power.

 

[rodoheel]

I don't see any scenario where any non-black person can/should use the n-word.

"Starring in a period drama" is about the only scenario I can think of

 

[superrific]

I don't see any scenario where any non-black person can/should use the n-word.

Well, of course. My question is what does it mean when someone does use it?

 

[superrific]

"Starring in a period drama" is about the only scenario I can think of

 

[pnwheel]

What politico article?
I think queen used the term on one of their early albums. Huge fan but it made me a bit uneasy.
I tend to give comics a wide berth but get a little aggravated when its just gratuitous. I might not object if white people used it to refer to other white people. Asians about other asians and so on. Anyone who wants to use it when referring to donald trump or some members of his family…its cool.

 

[NYCBlueBlood]

Well, of course. My question is what does it mean when someone does use it?

Not to follow the path of responding via gifs, but I'm not really clear what you're looking for. Any non-black person using the n-word is racist (except of course for the period piece exception). Full stop. It may be blatant racism... it may be unconscious bias sort of racism... it may be somewhere in between.

Your GNR example was from a bit of a different time. I liked GNR myself, but did not recall this specific lyric. Not being a huge lyrics guy, that's not much of a surprise. I never followed GNR enough to know if they meant it for shock value as you suggested, but in that age there were a lot of commonly used phrases that had racist/ homophobic undertones (overtones?) which were part of the common lexicon.

I'm embarrassed to admit now how long I used "gay" as a pejorative without thinking through how homophobic it was. Not to suggest that anybody has used the n-word in a loooooooong time without knowing its racist origins.

 

[4thgenheel]

What politico article?
I think queen used the term on one of their early albums. Huge fan but it made me a bit uneasy.
I tend to give comics a wide berth but get a little aggravated when its just gratuitous. I might not object if white people used it to refer to other white people. Asians about other asians and so on. Anyone who wants to use it when referring to donald trump or some members of his family…its cool.

Politics Post in thread 'CURRENT EVENTS'

Yesterday at 1:38 PM

• nycfan

• 
• 
• 

 

[NYCBlueBlood]

Politics Post in thread 'CURRENT EVENTS'

Yesterday at 1:38 PM

• nycfan

• 
• 
• 

Oh come now... what's a little locker room talk amongst friends... so long as they are white, male friends.

 

[superrific]

Not to follow the path of responding via gifs, but I'm not really clear what you're looking for. Any non-black person using the n-word is racist (except of course for the period piece exception). Full stop. It may be blatant racism... it may be unconscious bias sort of racism... it may be somewhere in between.

Your GNR example was from a bit of a different time. I liked GNR myself, but did not recall this specific lyric. Not being a huge lyrics guy, that's not much of a surprise. I never followed GNR enough to know if they meant it for shock value as you suggested, but in that age there were a lot of commonly used phrases that had racist/ homophobic undertones (overtones?) which were part of the common lexicon.

I'm embarrassed to admit now how long I used "gay" as a pejorative without thinking through how homophobic it was. Not to suggest that anybody has used the n-word in a loooooooong time without knowing its racist origins.

1. It's just after the 1:00 minute mark here. It is impossible to hear it and think "it was from a bit of a different time." He knew exactly what he was saying.



2. I mean, "that's racist" is an answer, but it's not all that satisfying. It seems awfully reductive. For instance, I think "they're eating the dogs, they're eating the cats" is considerably more racist than the n-word standing alone.

3. Or maybe we can try Pulp Fiction as an example. There's lots of n-words there, and if you've rewatched it recently, you might have found some of them exceedingly gratuitous and cringey. Maybe you did the first time around. Can we conclude that Tarantino is a racist? I mean, it's not a terrible inference. There's also the extremely lousy line -- maybe the worst line in the film -- about whether Mia wanted her shake Laurel and Hardy or Amos and Andy.

On the other hand, I saw an interview with Sam Jackson, and he pointed out that in every Tarantino film he's been in, his character was the smartest mfer (I think that's the word Sam used) in the movie. So he was fine with it. It's true. In Jackie Brown, Jackie and Ordell were the two smartest characters. Same in Django -- well, Django himself and Sam Jackson's house slave (and one supposes maybe King Schulz but they were all smarter than Calvin Candy). And Django would not be the first choice film, I think, for a racist. So does that make him sorta racist?

4. There are varieties of racism, right? There's straight up hate. There's belief in the harmful stereotypes. But there's also insensitivity (which maybe is where Tarantino falls), and what do we do with that? Maybe that's almost as bad as the straight hate itself, or maybe not. There's also a sort of tacit endorsement. In my principle of "don't say it or hang out with those who do," what if someone doesn't say it but does hang out with those who do? What does that mean? What does it mean if someone is willing to say it because of peer pressure.

When my brother was in high school, he and his friends had a term for a car tricked out in a certain way: n**-rigged. When I heard him say that, I was, shall we say, unhappy with him. He got a lecture from his older brother. But I don't think he used it with glee or happiness. I think he was just more of a go along get along guy, and his friends were privileged white dudes. So was he racist? I would say no . . . except that he did acquiesce to that. I let him off the hook because he was in high school (though considerably older than I was in the GNR anecdote above), but he could have been 22 and I'm not sure he would have acted differently. Now I don't think he'd tolerate it.

5. Suppose you were on the group chat in that Politico article. What's your responsibility? If it was me -- and this is a stretch because I don't hang out with those people -- I would have made my opinion known. I would have said, "stop talking like this, it's obscene" and if I was unsuccessful I would have left the chat. I'm not afraid to speak up, lol. But let's say there's someone else uncomfortable with it and doesn't use the phrases, but didn't object either.

I think there's a lot of nuance here that can get buried underneath "that's racist"

 

[SnoopRob]

I don't see any scenario where any non-black person can/should use the n-word. While it still makes me a bit uncomfortable when black people do use it, I understand that's the point... and recognize that's my problem for being uncomfortable and not theirs for using it. I applaud people for taking it back and using it to their advantage. There is power in that, and every reason to take/ use that power.

But what if I'm rapping along with Jay-Z or OutKast? Can I say it then?

 

[Molotov Mocktail]

I read about Axl awhile back. He had a rough upbringing, and was a troubled kid if I remember correctly. He did and said things because he’s a bit of shitbird.

I read an interview with Albini where he talked about his past and the things he did for shock value. He also said he had learned that just because he was trying to shock that didn’t excuse the shit he did. Some of it was pretty awful. A positive note, at least some middle-aged men are capable of growth and self-improvement.

I believe there are plenty of racist people out there that think because they don’t use the n-word they’re not really racist. I’ve heard the word most of my life (10 years old was the first time I remember actively hearing it).

I have a friend that used the word awhile back when it was just a handful of white guys drinking and playing games. I called him out on it, but he was adamant that if “they can say it, I can say it”. I don’t know if he still uses the word, but he’s never said it around me again. I think it’s pretty telling that he also never used the word around our black friends. Years later a couple of us were talking about the worst words in the English language and our friend of black and Puerto Rican descent said that n——r was easily the worst word. I still remember the shocked look on my buddy’s face realizing that that word actually causes people distress. He tried to respond, “yeah, maybe, but I’m not so sure.” She shut him down immediately with stories from her own life and family and friends lives.

I made a post awhile ago telling the story about the time my dad said, “I thought I was over being racist until that n——r Obama made me racist again.” A professor at KU used the word to say one of the most truly awful things I’ve ever heard (just me and his sons were there). I’ve told those stories with and without actually using the word. When I’ve used the word the reactions from people to the stories are stronger. There seems to be a greater sense of the outright hatefulness of the statements when it’s said verbatim.

 

[superrific]

I read about Axl awhile back. He had a rough upbringing, and was a troubled kid if I remember correctly. He did and said things because he’s a bit of shitbird.

I read an interview with Albini where he talked about his past and the things he did for shock value. He also said he had learned that just because he was trying to shock that didn’t excuse the shit he did. Some of it was pretty awful. A positive note, at least some middle-aged men are capable of growth and self-improvement.

I believe there are plenty of racist people out there that think because they don’t use the n-word they’re not really racist. I’ve heard the word most of my life (10 years old was the first time I remember actively hearing it).

I have a friend that used the word awhile back when it was just a handful of white guys drinking and playing games. I called him out on it, but he was adamant that if “they can say it, I can say it”. I don’t know if he still uses the word, but he’s never said it around me again. I think it’s pretty telling that he also never used the word around our black friends. Years later a couple of us were talking about the worst words in the English language and our friend of black and Puerto Rican descent said that n——r was easily the worst word. I still remember the shocked look on my buddy’s face realizing that that word actually causes people distress. He tried to respond, “yeah, maybe, but I’m not so sure.” She shut him down immediately with stories from her own life and family and friends lives.

I made a post awhile ago telling the story about the time my dad said, “I thought I was over being racist until that n——r Obama made me racist again.” A professor at KU used the word to say one of the most truly awful things I’ve ever heard (just me and his sons were there). I’ve told those stories with and without actually using the word. When I’ve used the word the reactions from people to the stories are stronger. There seems to be a greater sense of the outright hatefulness of the statements when it’s said verbatim.

1. Yeah, maybe naming a band Rapeman was not the best idea.

2. When you say it's pretty telling that he never used the word around our black friends, what do you mean? That *could* be interpreted as "I know this word is hurtful when said to people to whom it applies, but there's nothing wrong with the word in itself" which is something different than what I think you are saying. I guess this is a point of my question.

3. That's a weird line from your dad. It's almost clever and self-reflective, but then not really. My dad just used to compare black people to primates, so it was pretty cut and dried.

4. Interesting that people use it as a negative litmus test. Like, as long as I don't recite the incantation, I'm cool?

5. I've never entirely understood why racist people are so fucking adamant about not being called racist. I mean, some of today's white supremacists are at least honest about it -- they're like, yeah we think we're superior and if you call me racist, I really don't care. Note that doesn't, in my book, make it better; only more comprehensible. If you know it's wrong to judge people by their race, then don't. If you don't think it's wrong, then what does it matter to you if people call you names?

 

[sunnyheel]

Ah, this. I was almost banned at IC for almost using the n-word once and another time for referring to a certain Senator as Uncle Tim and another time for referring to other orders of opportunistic race players like Scott as Kapos. I was banned from this site for referring to a particularly difficult (white, duh) poster as a Tar Baby.

So I have a lot to say about the subject of political correctness and hypersensitivity to anything that may carry racial/ethnic connotations.

I get that political correctness is a well-intentioned effort to expose the persistence of various forms of prejudice. Unfortunately, as we all must realize, censorship never works. In fact, as the current moment vividly illustrates, it only elevates the power of the prejudice/impulse.

Here’s a pertinent anecdote. The classic comedy Blazing Saddles was recently revived on one of the streaming services. I found it as hilarious as ever but was gobsmacked by the realization that the movie could not be made today.

To test my measure, I asked a Black friend who was completely unfamiliar with the movie to give it a watch. He couldn’t believe what he was seeing/hearing. He loled.

Now ask yourself if racism today, after 50ish years of censorious efforts to abate racism, is more or less virulent than when Mel Brooks published his artistic lampoon of the subject.

Esse quam videri