what exactly is the significance of the n word

[Molotov Mocktail]

1. Yeah, maybe naming a band Rapeman was not the best idea.

2. When you say it's pretty telling that he never used the word around our black friends, what do you mean? That *could* be interpreted as "I know this word is hurtful when said to people to whom it applies, but there's nothing wrong with the word in itself" which is something different than what I think you are saying. I guess this is a point of my question.

3. That's a weird line from your dad. It's almost clever and self-reflective, but then not really. My dad just used to compare black people to primates, so it was pretty cut and dried.

4. Interesting that people use it as a negative litmus test. Like, as long as I don't recite the incantation, I'm cool?

5. I've never entirely understood why racist people are so fucking adamant about not being called racist. I mean, some of today's white supremacists are at least honest about it -- they're like, yeah we think we're superior and if you call me racist, I really don't care. Note that doesn't, in my book, make it better; only more comprehensible. If you know it's wrong to judge people by their race, then don't. If you don't think it's wrong, then what does it matter to you if people call you names?

2. I don’t think he ever gave any thought to why he shouldn’t use the word. His argument for using it was just that it’s not fair that black people can say it and he can’t. That he didn’t use the word around our black friends seemed to me that he knew it wasn’t acceptable. My experience with white people using the word is they use it only when they’re with other white people they’re comfortable with. He also made a comment a few years ago after the summer 2020 protests that reverse racism from blacks was the worst problem facing America right now.

3. When my dad made that comment it was after I walked into his work and he had Alex Jones on the radio. I explained how awful that dude was. I thought maybe he listened to what I said but then he made the comment I posted above. Dad isn’t really the self-reflective type and Fox has made him nearly impossible to spend time around.

5. Not only are many of them pearl clutches when when their racism is pointed out, but they’re the same people that tell you racism isn’t a problem anymore.

 

[NYCBlueBlood]

1. It's just after the 1:00 minute mark here. It is impossible to hear it and think "it was from a bit of a different time." He knew exactly what he was saying.



2. I mean, "that's racist" is an answer, but it's not all that satisfying. It seems awfully reductive. For instance, I think "they're eating the dogs, they're eating the cats" is considerably more racist than the n-word standing alone.

3. Or maybe we can try Pulp Fiction as an example. There's lots of n-words there, and if you've rewatched it recently, you might have found some of them exceedingly gratuitous and cringey. Maybe you did the first time around. Can we conclude that Tarantino is a racist? I mean, it's not a terrible inference. There's also the extremely lousy line -- maybe the worst line in the film -- about whether Mia wanted her shake Laurel and Hardy or Amos and Andy.

On the other hand, I saw an interview with Sam Jackson, and he pointed out that in every Tarantino film he's been in, his character was the smartest mfer (I think that's the word Sam used) in the movie. So he was fine with it. It's true. In Jackie Brown, Jackie and Ordell were the two smartest characters. Same in Django -- well, Django himself and Sam Jackson's house slave (and one supposes maybe King Schulz but they were all smarter than Calvin Candy). And Django would not be the first choice film, I think, for a racist. So does that make him sorta racist?

4. There are varieties of racism, right? There's straight up hate. There's belief in the harmful stereotypes. But there's also insensitivity (which maybe is where Tarantino falls), and what do we do with that? Maybe that's almost as bad as the straight hate itself, or maybe not. There's also a sort of tacit endorsement. In my principle of "don't say it or hang out with those who do," what if someone doesn't say it but does hang out with those who do? What does that mean? What does it mean if someone is willing to say it because of peer pressure.

When my brother was in high school, he and his friends had a term for a car tricked out in a certain way: n**-rigged. When I heard him say that, I was, shall we say, unhappy with him. He got a lecture from his older brother. But I don't think he used it with glee or happiness. I think he was just more of a go along get along guy, and his friends were privileged white dudes. So was he racist? I would say no . . . except that he did acquiesce to that. I let him off the hook because he was in high school (though considerably older than I was in the GNR anecdote above), but he could have been 22 and I'm not sure he would have acted differently. Now I don't think he'd tolerate it.

5. Suppose you were on the group chat in that Politico article. What's your responsibility? If it was me -- and this is a stretch because I don't hang out with those people -- I would have made my opinion known. I would have said, "stop talking like this, it's obscene" and if I was unsuccessful I would have left the chat. I'm not afraid to speak up, lol. But let's say there's someone else uncomfortable with it and doesn't use the phrases, but didn't object either.

I think there's a lot of nuance here that can get buried underneath "that's racist"

1) Honestly I do not remember that song. GNR Lies was never my favorite of their albums. Patience is really the only song from that album I recall going out of my way to listen to. That said, when listening now I agree there is no way to think "it was from a different time."

2) While I agree that "they're eating the dogs, they're eating the cats" is more racist in actual content, IMO using the n-word has so much more baggage and historical hatred behind it. There are few words in the English language that have been used to convey hate in quite the same way, or even remotely as pervasively. It's hard to think of the word racism without immediately the n-word coming to mind.

3) There is a bit of leeway when using it in various art mediums... be it literature or TV/film. I generally find the execution of it to be more cringey that the artist is trying to convey, but I agree with you that Tarantino's usage in PF is certainly easier to look past than GNR's. I do think that linking it to a powerful/ smart black actor/ role helps quite a bit. It's clear Tarantino's intent is not to promote or normalize racism.

4) Your brother's use of the term for a tricked out car could be anywhere from just wanting to fit in... to being mildly racist but generally avoiding showing it when people he knew were not racist were around. It's hard to imagine using that term and not meaning it to be racist.

But then again, I still have hard time reconciling that I used the word "gay" as a pejorative when I was young. I do not think of myself as ever having been homophobic... sometimes you just hear words used enough in a certain context that your mind translates the intent without thinking through the vehicle that intent was delivered through... or maybe that's just BS to make myself feel better... hard to say.

5) With the Politico chat, I'm not sure if I'd call it out or just exit the chat. I'd like to think I'd call it out. But my natural inclination is to be diplomatic and not confrontational... not admirable, but true. In a work situation I would definitely call it out. But if it's a personal situation, I tend to just walk away from situations where I am no ok with what is being done or said. I would definitely call out close friends, but I can't imagine having close friends who would say anything like that.

 

[ZenMode]

There's nothing magical about the n-word. It's one of many offensive words related to race and/or ethnicity.

What's incredibly odd about the n-word is that it is often labeled as the pinnacle of offensive terms, yet it is used constantly and chronically by those who purport to be most offended by it.

I've had many black friends in my life time. "Friend" meaning I make a point to see them outside of school or work.

Only one didn't use the n-word and was very open about it.

 

[superrific]

But then again, I still have hard time reconciling that I used the word "gay" as a pejorative when I was young. I do not think of myself as ever having been homophobic... sometimes you just hear words used enough in a certain context that your mind translates the intent without thinking through the vehicle that intent was delivered through... or maybe that's just BS to make myself feel better... hard to say.

It depends on how young, but even if you were "of age" so to speak, sometimes we don't think about words.

When I was 13 I was talking to a Jewish guy who had bet me money but was refusing to pay. I said, "don't Jew me over" and he looked really hurt. That's when I realized he was Jewish. It's ALSO when I realized what the fuck I was saying. I hadn't ever given the saying any thought at all; it was just something people said, it meant be tight with money; and whatever. No biggie.

Looking back, it seems almost incomprehensible that I didn't realize what that saying meant. Like, seriously? And yes, seriously. I'm positive that I don't have anti-Semitic feelings because nobody in my house really mentioned Jews; I saw right through all the bullshit about how they are sneaky or untrustworthy etc. To this day, I don't really "get" anti-Semitism. And yet there I was, using a hurtful expression because I didn't know wtf it meant.

 

[mpaer]

It depends on how young, but even if you were "of age" so to speak, sometimes we don't think about words.

When I was 13 I was talking to a Jewish guy who had bet me money but was refusing to pay. I said, "don't Jew me over" and he looked really hurt. That's when I realized he was Jewish. It's ALSO when I realized what the fuck I was saying. I hadn't ever given the saying any thought at all; it was just something people said, it meant be tight with money; and whatever. No biggie.

Looking back, it seems almost incomprehensible that I didn't realize what that saying meant. Like, seriously? And yes, seriously. I'm positive that I don't have anti-Semitic feelings because nobody in my house really mentioned Jews; I saw right through all the bullshit about how they are sneaky or untrustworthy etc. To this day, I don't really "get" anti-Semitism. And yet there I was, using a hurtful expression because I didn't know wtf it meant.

I lived in a town in High School that had maybe 2 Jewish students-zero Black students. I remember some really solid kid giving a presentation about a field trip or some such He was talking about purchasing something and said "he Jewed me down' Dave had heard it-Dave was not anti-semitic-I don't think he had any isms in his views-but he said it
I did not judge him-I obviously still feel 50 years later he made a mistake

 

[ColdBlueSteel]

 

[superrific]

Oh, shit. I didn't even remember that line. A beautiful song, lol.

 

[hedge]

I was fixin to say, immigrants and faggots have gotten short shrift in this thread. It is a good song, though. Even quotes Shakespeare. Let's not forget the John Lennon song Woman is the ****** of the World. And the lyrics of Marilyn Manson's Irresponsible Hate Anthem (from the genius.com website; I'm don't know whether or not Manson himself used the hard R when he wrote it, but considering the theme and substance of the lyrics, it hardly matters):

Everybody's someone else's *****
I know you are so am I
I wasn't born with enough middle fingers
I don't need to choose a side

Speaking of hardly mattering, this last reminds me of nycfan's reportage of her take on Blood Meridian. I recall she waxed eloquent about the glories of the writing, but mentioned being discomfited by the use of the N-word (as often used to refer to the Native Americans the gang was set about to slaughter as to actual black people, but used liberally in any case). I remember replying that, considering the general brutality, barbarity and carnage of the proceedings depicted, I found the racial slurs rather quaint (she lol'd in response, IIRC)...

 

[hedge]

I will admit to actually typing out the vile word that the forum software ******'d out above. Did not bother me at all type it in the context of my post...

 

[farce©]

Oliver’s Army
Elvis Costello, 1979

Don't start that talking
I could talk all night
My mind was sleepwalking
While I'm putting the world to right
Call careers information
Have you got yourself an occupation?

Oliver's army is here to stay
Oliver's army are on their way
And I would rather be anywhere else
But here today

There was a Checkpoint Charlie
He didn't crack a smile
But it's no laughing party
When you've been on the murder mile
Only takes one itchy trigger
One more widow, one less white n*****

Oliver's Army is here to stay
Oliver's army are on their way
And I would rather be anywhere else
But here today

Hong Kong is up for grabs
London is full of Arabs
We could be in Palestine
Overrun by the Chinese line
With the boys from the Mersey and the Thames and the Tyne

But there's no danger
It's a professional career
Though it could be arranged
With just a word in Mr. Churchill's ear
If you're out of luck or out of work
We could send you to Johannesburg

Oliver's Army is here to stay
Oliver's army are on their way
And I would rather be anywhere else
But here today
And I would rather be anywhere else
But here today
And I would rather be anywhere else
But here today
Oh oh oh oh, oh oh oh
Oh oh oh oh, oh oh oh

 

[hedge]

A black woman attends to my dad, a jewish friend of mine sometimes asks me how my dad's schvartze is doing (maybe she's actually using the German schwarz, but I don't think so). I don't know if she's being racist or not? Kinda reminds me of the less-quoted black joke in Blazing Saddles when the indians (led by Mel Brooks) surround the black family in the wagon train: They darker than us!

 

[Batt Boy]

Ah, this. I was almost banned at IC for almost using the n-word once and another time for referring to a certain Senator as Uncle Tim and another time for referring to other orders of opportunistic race players like Scott as Kapos. I was banned from this site for referring to a particularly difficult (white, duh) poster as a Tar Baby.

So I have a lot to say about the subject of political correctness and hypersensitivity to anything that may carry racial/ethnic connotations.

I get that political correctness is a well-intentioned effort to expose the persistence of various forms of prejudice. Unfortunately, as we all must realize, censorship never works. In fact, as the current moment vividly illustrates, it only elevates the power of the prejudice/impulse.

Here’s a pertinent anecdote. The classic comedy Blazing Saddles was recently revived on one of the streaming services. I found it as hilarious as ever but was gobsmacked by the realization that the movie could not be made today.

To test my measure, I asked a Black friend who was completely unfamiliar with the movie to give it a watch. He couldn’t believe what he was seeing/hearing. He loled.

Now ask yourself if racism today, after 50ish years of censorious efforts to abate racism, is more or less virulent than when Mel Brooks published his artistic lampoon of the subject.

Esse quam videri

Don’t forget, years ago at IC, when I expressed that I supported Kaepernick except I didn’t like his “cops are pigs” socks, you exploded on me and callled me a racist.

I have missed your take here as I agree with your perspective about 95% of the time.

 

[Icky Mettle]

1. Yeah, maybe naming a band Rapeman was not the best idea.

2. When you say it's pretty telling that he never used the word around our black friends, what do you mean? That *could* be interpreted as "I know this word is hurtful when said to people to whom it applies, but there's nothing wrong with the word in itself" which is something different than what I think you are saying. I guess this is a point of my question.

3. That's a weird line from your dad. It's almost clever and self-reflective, but then not really. My dad just used to compare black people to primates, so it was pretty cut and dried.

4. Interesting that people use it as a negative litmus test. Like, as long as I don't recite the incantation, I'm cool?

5. I've never entirely understood why racist people are so fucking adamant about not being called racist. I mean, some of today's white supremacists are at least honest about it -- they're like, yeah we think we're superior and if you call me racist, I really don't care. Note that doesn't, in my book, make it better; only more comprehensible. If you know it's wrong to judge people by their race, then don't. If you don't think it's wrong, then what does it matter to you if people call you names?

Albini was also very briefly in a band called Run N____ Run (along with Urge Oberkill’s Nash Kato) which performed a song called “Pray I don’t Kill You F____t.”

 

[finesse]

Oliver’s Army
Elvis Costello, 1979

Don't start that talking
I could talk all night
My mind was sleepwalking
While I'm putting the world to right
Call careers information
Have you got yourself an occupation?

Oliver's army is here to stay
Oliver's army are on their way
And I would rather be anywhere else
But here today

There was a Checkpoint Charlie
He didn't crack a smile
But it's no laughing party
When you've been on the murder mile
Only takes one itchy trigger
One more widow, one less white n*****

Oliver's Army is here to stay
Oliver's army are on their way
And I would rather be anywhere else
But here today

Hong Kong is up for grabs
London is full of Arabs
We could be in Palestine
Overrun by the Chinese line
With the boys from the Mersey and the Thames and the Tyne

But there's no danger
It's a professional career
Though it could be arranged
With just a word in Mr. Churchill's ear
If you're out of luck or out of work
We could send you to Johannesburg

Oliver's Army is here to stay
Oliver's army are on their way
And I would rather be anywhere else
But here today
And I would rather be anywhere else
But here today
And I would rather be anywhere else
But here today
Oh oh oh oh, oh oh oh
Oh oh oh oh, oh oh oh

Was reading the thread and started to post this. Glad I read on before I did. Apparently British soldiers referred to Catholics of Northern Irish descent as such. Costello has altered the lyrics when he performs it now.