What Happened to American conservatism?

I think the difference between Seward and Lincoln in terms of their conservatism was much more related to temperament than ideology. Both were liberals. Lincoln perhaps more of a constitutional liberal and Seward a moral liberal.

Lincoln’s commitment to proceduralism strikes me as deeply liberal.

That being said, I take your critique in terms of saying he was the embodiment of classical liberalism. That’s putting it a bit too far. I suppose you could say he was to the right (or left? Hard to say since we see things a lot differently now) of classical liberalism in that he embraced a certain economic nationalism and strong executive action during the war.

Lincoln was pro-worker: "Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."
 
Eh. I don't think I'd agree it was always a lie. Conservatism, if morally grounded, serves an important role in the political order. That has been much more the case in times past than it is now. In my view, American conservatism sold its soul when these two things happened:

1. The party of individual liberties was coopted by the dominant (albeit much less influential now) Southern Baptist Convention to become the party of religious "moralism."
2. Under the guidance of Feldstein and Laffer, the 1980s era GOP decided fiscal responsibility was irrelevant.

Once those two tendencies took root, American conservatism was functionally dead. And nothing occupies a fallow field better than the cultural and social weed that is grievance-based populism.
I think you're right. I think I did a poor job of articulating. I do think that morally-grounded conservatism serves an important role in the political order. I think it serves as a good counterbalance to progressivism (or, rather, they serve as god counterbalances for one another). I just mean that American conservatism has been so bastardized and commandeered by people who are anything but *actually* conservative. If anything, the mainstream Democratic Party is much closer to actual classical conservatism in policy aims than the Republican Party which claims to be conservative.
 
Time, i.e., the way humans live, work, play, and exist, has in very real ways passed "classical conservatism" by.
 
There’s an argument to be made that American Conservatism is a modern phenomenon that begins with Buckley’s synthesis of various strands.

That is certainly George Nash's argument. But that argument goes too far to the extent that it pretends that Buckley actually wanted to exorcise the kooks, cranks, racists, and neo-Nazis from the conservative moment in any significant sense. The guy had regular correspondence with George Rockwell, ffs.
 
What we’re seeing now is the endgame of a long delusion: conservative intellectuals, especially those who bought into the Buckley/Nash myth of a respectable, self-policing conservatism, are realizing too late that they were never truly in control of the movement they thought they were guiding.
Are there really any actual conservative intellectuals left...or have they all become moderate liberals as part of the wholesale shift of the educated toward the center-left/Dems?

I would say at one point conservative intellectuals played a major role in the Republican Party, especially via influencing the party leadership which then led the party apparatus and selected national leadership. But as the populist right grew in size, the intellectuals were marginalized and, IMHO, eventually driven from the Republican Party altogether.
 
How do you mean? I'm not saying I disagree with you- I'd just love to hear your thoughts.
Well, instead I'll give you a stylized parable.

Once upon a time, let's say in the 19th century, Western politics had essentially two poles: Labor and Capital. In the US there was also regional conflict but by 1900 that had become less important. And thus did the politics organize accordingly. "Left" politicians (who were not known as liberals at the time) were basically supposed to stand up for workers' rights; "Right" politicians were supposed to stand up for capital. As both were necessary for a functioning economy, there were serious ideas in both ways. Laborers rightly wanted not to be exploited and treated as disposable; capital rightly wanted to build production facilities to mass produce goods.

But in the modern world, there are a lot more claimants on both politics and capital. Politics has to answer to a desegregated voting population, with voter blocs resentful of continuing oppression. Capital has to accommodate 20th century concerns like environmental conservation, antitrust laws, financial transparency, etc. Suddenly, building factories wasn't a good enough answer. Conservatives had to offer more than just laissez-faire, and the Depression showed what would happen to them politically if they failed.

But what can capital actually suggest on these topics? In large measure, 20th century politics was about using law to make corporations do stuff they don't really want to do. That's the regulatory state. And on these topics, there's not really a middle ground. Capital does not want securities laws, period. It doesn't have a different way of implementing them; "conservative" ideas on these regulatory state issues were generally proposals to do some fraction of the job the public wanted done (one result being all the carveouts in laws and regulations). They would say, "we're proposing to do the most important stuff" and there's a certain logic to that; the overregulation of benzene is a famous example of doing way more than the important stuff. But in general, politics was about the people telling capital what they wanted it to do, and capital trying to do as little of it as possible.

But half-assery is not a promising political identity. And that's one reason that the Dems started cleaning the GOP's clock in the 1960s, even with the war sabotaging the Dems' efforts. The GOP realized it had to snare the disaffected racists to survive. Unfortunately for the GOP, the disaffected racists were even less fond of capital's policies than the overall population -- due to suspicion of jews and bankers etc. So the coalition was hard to maintain, until the GOP found its solution: Just lie.

Conservatives learned that if you threw out racist red meat, it didn't really matter that their ideas about "fair labor" consisted of little more than union-busting. That they were wrecking natural resources with opposition to every anti-pollution law around. So on and so forth. And thus did the GOP policy positions increasingly fetishize the appearance of myth over substance. We think of Trump ranting about shower heads as a MAGA thing, but it's not. Back in Obama's term, GOPers whined about losing their precious incandescent light bulbs. And so did the GOP start sucking its own propaganda teats.

Cap-and-trade was invented by center-rightists in the 1980s. It was Bush 41 who signed the system into law. Liberals quickly embraced it because it really worked. It was probably the most effective piece of regulatory technology, so to speak, of the late 20th century. It was also the last good idea that the GOP ever had on the environment. It was just so much easier to lie.
 
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A, THE, Bircher / N.C. Connection: “…
in 1958 Robert Welch of Chowan County North Carolina founded the John Birch Society. The organization was named for a ‘missionary’ killed by Chinese Communists - the circumstances of which are cloudy as they occurred during the days of the Japanese surrender at the end of World War II in China as greatly complicating the narrative, Birch was also an undercover US Army Air Forces Intelligence Officer and OSS operative.



Raised up in Hertford, N. C., Robert Welch eventually came to believe that ‘Reds’ were everywhere-For example, he accused Presidents Truman and Eisenhower of being party members. Welch’s paranoid style haunts what passes for political discourse even today, often poisoning our attempts at progressive dialogue. When a modern conservative proclaims with vigor that “America is not a democracy! It is a republic!” they are working from the “Bircher” script. Of course the US is not a democracy in the purest sense but rather an aspirational ideal as framed by the better angels of our Constitutional Democratic Republic. Historically Bircher obfuscation has been their main play in covertly and overtly asserting the supremacy of State’s Rights as a way to nullify the advances of the Civil and Equal Rights Movements of the past 60 plus years.



Rich from candy trade (yep - THAT Welch) his millions financed his fanatical crusade. A child prodigy, Welch entered UNC at 12 years old and was a graduate of the Class of 1916. He went on to attend the US Naval Academy and Harvard. From its founding in 1958, Welch closely controlled the John Birch Society which at its apex counted 100,000 members, until his death in 1985. The JBS was anti-United Nations because as an organization it represented global collectivism and international cooperation with communists and socialists. The JBS campaigned vigorously for the impeachment of Chief Justice Earl Warren for his support for the Supreme Court’s pro-Civil Rights decisions. Welch and company seem to have genuinely believed that 60+% of the employees of the Federal Government were Communists. The JBS led the targeting of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. as a Leftist enemy of America. Welch was clearly a harbinger of today’s trumpist GOP lunacy, radical extremism, and dirty politics. That Tar Heels in the Center and on the Left have been in a battle with the despotism of the likes of Jesse Helms, Madison Cawthorn, Virginia Foxx and the constant anti-progress, anti-intellect, and regressive actions of our state General Assembly is bound up in the same ways of seeing that birthed Welch’s twisted worldview.



“…Trumpism is not a reversion to an older, more gothic form of conservatism but an apotheosis decades in the making. Trump may have been our country’s first post-truth president. But the post-truth environment of conspiracy we are living in today has been a long time coming. We owe it in part to the truth-optional habits on the right that Robert Welch and the Birch Society exemplified—and in part to the same Republican elites who were complicit every step of the way." The John Birch Society Never Left



So a Chowan County candy baron bears much of the blame for the steady development of the truthless worldview that plagues our nation and threatens so acutely the very foundation of the system that has, for just shy of 250 years, been the developing dream of egalitarianism and human and civil rights. Welch passed on in 1985, he was 86, but his ideas are stronger than ever. With 2024 behind us and an uncertain future ahead it remains to be seen if the Bircher Ideal will ultimately win out.”

Wrote that a few months back.

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Civil Rights… Buckley/Goldwater… Dixiecrats switched to Republican…. Southern Strategy…. Roe v Wade…. Moral Majority takes over Party…. Reagan and Welfare Queens…. Newt and Contract on America…. Reagan kills Fairness Doctrine brings on Rush and Fox… then God Forbid a black man in the White House….
 
Civil Rights… Buckley/Goldwater… Dixiecrats switched to Republican…. Southern Strategy…. Roe v Wade…. Moral Majority takes over Party…. Reagan and Welfare Queens…. Newt and Contract on America…. Reagan kills Fairness Doctrine brings on Rush and Fox… then God Forbid a black man in the White House….
Sounds like a new “We Didn’t Start the Fire.”

This is turning into a really great thread btw. Lots of very interesting posts.
 
IMG_8870.jpeg


A, THE, Bircher / N.C. Connection: “…
in 1958 Robert Welch of Chowan County North Carolina founded the John Birch Society. The organization was named for a ‘missionary’ killed by Chinese Communists - the circumstances of which are cloudy as they occurred during the days of the Japanese surrender at the end of World War II in China as greatly complicating the narrative, Birch was also an undercover US Army Air Forces Intelligence Officer and OSS operative.



Raised up in Hertford, N. C., Robert Welch eventually came to believe that ‘Reds’ were everywhere-For example, he accused Presidents Truman and Eisenhower of being party members. Welch’s paranoid style haunts what passes for political discourse even today, often poisoning our attempts at progressive dialogue. When a modern conservative proclaims with vigor that “America is not a democracy! It is a republic!” they are working from the “Bircher” script. Of course the US is not a democracy in the purest sense but rather an aspirational ideal as framed by the better angels of our Constitutional Democratic Republic. Historically Bircher obfuscation has been their main play in covertly and overtly asserting the supremacy of State’s Rights as a way to nullify the advances of the Civil and Equal Rights Movements of the past 60 plus years.



Rich from candy trade (yep - THAT Welch) his millions financed his fanatical crusade. A child prodigy, Welch entered UNC at 12 years old and was a graduate of the Class of 1916. He went on to attend the US Naval Academy and Harvard. From its founding in 1958, Welch closely controlled the John Birch Society which at its apex counted 100,000 members, until his death in 1985. The JBS was anti-United Nations because as an organization it represented global collectivism and international cooperation with communists and socialists. The JBS campaigned vigorously for the impeachment of Chief Justice Earl Warren for his support for the Supreme Court’s pro-Civil Rights decisions. Welch and company seem to have genuinely believed that 60+% of the employees of the Federal Government were Communists. The JBS led the targeting of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. as a Leftist enemy of America. Welch was clearly a harbinger of today’s trumpist GOP lunacy, radical extremism, and dirty politics. That Tar Heels in the Center and on the Left have been in a battle with the despotism of the likes of Jesse Helms, Madison Cawthorn, Virginia Foxx and the constant anti-progress, anti-intellect, and regressive actions of our state General Assembly is bound up in the same ways of seeing that birthed Welch’s twisted worldview.



“…Trumpism is not a reversion to an older, more gothic form of conservatism but an apotheosis decades in the making. Trump may have been our country’s first post-truth president. But the post-truth environment of conspiracy we are living in today has been a long time coming. We owe it in part to the truth-optional habits on the right that Robert Welch and the Birch Society exemplified—and in part to the same Republican elites who were complicit every step of the way." The John Birch Society Never Left



So a Chowan County candy baron bears much of the blame for the steady development of the truthless worldview that plagues our nation and threatens so acutely the very foundation of the system that has, for just shy of 250 years, been the developing dream of egalitarianism and human and civil rights. Welch passed on in 1985, he was 86, but his ideas are stronger than ever. With 2024 behind us and an uncertain future ahead it remains to be seen if the Bircher Ideal will ultimately win out.”

Wrote that a few months back.

IMG_8869.jpeg

Hertford is in Perquimans county.

In any case, UNC has been the proud home to not 1 but 2 very influential right-wing "thinkers": Welch, yes, but also Sam Francis, who got his PhD from UNC. Francis was a speechwriter for John East and theorized the political potency of a sort of alienated, anti-PMC white middle class. I dare say who's more influential right now.
 
Neither of those economists thought fiscal responsibility was irrelevant. I don't think the GOP did either. They just liked tax cuts more.
In 1976 and 1980, the Howard Bakers, George H. W. Bushes, and Gerald Fords definitely thought balanced budgets mattered. By 1980, the Ronald Reagans and Jack Kemps worshipped tax cuts and blaming deficits on “welfare queens” driving Cadillacs.
 
American conservatism was always about white supremacy. Not to be confused with different strains of racism like anti black, anti any version of Hispanic, anti any version of Asian.

It's always been about white ppl...and the dumbing down of white ppl is now live and in HD and on mobile phones.
 
That's interesting. I don't think of Lincoln as conservative.
Ah... too woke.
So, Teddy R., Dwight? Too woke also?
Surely Teddy R. has to be labeled conservative, no?
Let us not conflate conservative with Conservative with Republican with MAGA. Perhaps that's fodder for another question for our guest, David Brooks.
"What is the relationship or connection between Lincoln - Teddy - Dwight - Goldwater - Nixon - Reagan - Bush - Trump? And: bonus question for final Jeopardy: _______________ (fill in the blank)
 
American conservatism was always about white supremacy. Not to be confused with different strains of racism like anti black, anti any version of Hispanic, anti any version of Asian.

It's always been about white ppl...and the dumbing down of white ppl is now live and in HD and on mobile phones.
This^^^
Winner winner chicken dinner.
Admins: Shut down this thread. It's over. Turn out the lights.
 
American conservatism was always about white supremacy. Not to be confused with different strains of racism like anti black, anti any version of Hispanic, anti any version of Asian.

It's always been about white ppl...and the dumbing down of white ppl is now live and in HD and on mobile phones.
So long as you equate being Irish, Italian, Greek, Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Slavic, Russian Orthodox, Jewish, Spanish, Polish, Lithuanian, Latvian, Estonian, Scandinavian (when all those Johnsons were coming over, they weren’t exactly welcomed), etc., with being not white, I agree.

American conservatism has been about many things - cheap labor being first-and-foremost. As soon as one oppressed group of Europeans began assimilating (say the Germans - too many were Catholic; then maybe the Irish or the Poles), bring in another group of “them.” The latest group will hate the new immigrants because they’re driving down wages.

The powers-that-be will play each group off the other to drive down wages.
 
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