What is Meritocracy / merit-based hiring? Does DEI preclude or replace merit?

[Callatoroy]

Because DEI is a very real danger to mediocre white men. When you can't separate yourself from others based on skill, knowledge, and technical achievement, the best chances you have to advance are privilege and connections.

And in the world of Republicans, DEI has become a modern day synonym for affirmative action, which has long been deemed the reason that white guys don't get their just reward in any and every position.

Right because the innovation that made this country great was founded on equal outcomes for all wasn’t it.

 

[Callatoroy]

I'd think most marketing and sales programs would benefit from diverse inputs of all types.

Fwiw, I also approve of the increased number of women doctors. Most of my doctors over the last eight years have been women and I've liked them, for the most part, better than the males now or in the 65 years before that stretch.

I know right. When I’m shopping for a doctor I always look for gender, race, ethnicity, and sexual orientation first. Then I hope they are the best in their field.

 

[BlooVooDoo]

Meanwhile, in DEI purging/revising history news …



“… By Monday morning, a section of her online biography titled, “She advocated for women in science,” was gone. It reappeared in a stripped-down form later that day amid a chaotic federal government response to Trump’s campaign against diversity, equity and inclusion programs.

While there are far more seismic changes afoot in America than the revision of three paragraphs on a website, the page’s edit trail provides an opportunity to peer into how institutions and agencies are navigating the new administration’s intolerance of anything perceived as “woke” and illuminates a calculation officials must make in answering a wide-open question:

How far is too far when it comes to acknowledging inequality and advocating against it?

… [One paragraph that had been removed was restoring full.] That was not the case for the paragraph that followed: “Science is still a male-dominated field, but Rubin Observatory is working to increase participation from women and other people who have historically been excluded from science. Rubin Observatory welcomes everyone who wants to contribute to science, and takes steps to lower or eliminate barriers that exclude those with less privilege.”

That paragraph was gone as of Thursday afternoon, as was the assertion that Rubin shows what can happen when “more minds” participate in science. The word “more” was replaced with “many,” shifting the meaning.

… “I’m sure Vera would be absolutely furious,” said Jacqueline Mitton, an astronomer and author who co-wrote a biography of Rubin’s life. Mitton said the phrase “more minds” implies that “you want minds from people from every different background,” an idea that follows naturally from the now-deleted text on systemic barriers.

She said Rubin, who died in 2016, would want the observatory named after her to continue her work advocating for women and other groups who have long been underrepresented in science.

It’s unclear who ordered the specific alterations of Rubin’s biography. …”

The granularity of pettiness involved here must have required ten thousand incel hours.

 

[SnoopRob]

Right because the innovation that made this country great was founded on equal outcomes for all wasn’t it.

That is a great non-sequitur. You will certainly give this strawman a thorough thrashing.

 

[BlooVooDoo]

I know right. When I’m shopping for a doctor I always look for gender, race, ethnicity, and sexual orientation first. Then I hope they are the best in their field.

Do you harbor the fantasy that you’re actually capable of evaluating the best qualified physicians?

 

[roostra]

Right because the innovation that made this country great was founded on equal outcomes for all wasn’t it.

For a substantial amount of our country's history, we were only looking at innovators from a very small pool. Imagine if we had looked for (and trained) innovators from all backgrounds - particularly in the 1800s.

 

[TarSpiel]

Right because the innovation that made this country great was founded on equal outcomes for all wasn’t it.

DEI is not about equal outcomes. It's about equal opportunity. That's a major difference.

 

[Callatoroy]

For a substantial amount of our country's history, we were only looking at innovators from a very small pool. Imagine if we had looked for (and trained) innovators from all backgrounds - particularly in the 1800s.

While I agree in theory, it doesn’t hold up in practice and is rooted in lunacy

Don Lemon Told Elon Musk "No Evidence" DEI Lowers Standards: Here's the Evidence

During a contentious interview with X CEO Elon Musk, former CNN reporter Don Lemon repeatedly denied that Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) principles would lead to any lowering of standards in the medical industry — or really any industry. [RELATED: Top State-Funded Journalism School...

www.themainewire.com

Duke report tying ‘individualism’ to ‘white supremacy’ uncovered amidst increasing scrutiny of DEI

Scrutiny of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) initiatives in higher education has been increasing for months, with more opponents...

www.goacta.org

 

[CFordUNC]

It is often accompanied by lowering standards and there is no place for equal outcomes for all. It is the most unamerican concept ever.

I'm definitely someone who believes in ensuring equal opportunity versus ensuring equal outcomes, and as I say frequently on this subject, I believe in hiring the most qualified person above all other criteria, but I don't think DEI necessarily necessitates lowering standards. My understanding of DEI- and admittedly my understandng could be incorrect or incomplete- is that it is in place to ensure that there is fair treatment and full participation in hiring processes for folks from all backgrounds, not just on basis of race, ethnicity, or sex, but also on basis of veteran status, disability status, etc.

 

[roostra]

While I agree in theory, it doesn’t hold up in practice and is rooted in lunacy

Don Lemon Told Elon Musk "No Evidence" DEI Lowers Standards: Here's the Evidence

During a contentious interview with X CEO Elon Musk, former CNN reporter Don Lemon repeatedly denied that Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) principles would lead to any lowering of standards in the medical industry — or really any industry. [RELATED: Top State-Funded Journalism School...

www.themainewire.com

Duke report tying ‘individualism’ to ‘white supremacy’ uncovered amidst increasing scrutiny of DEI

Scrutiny of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) initiatives in higher education has been increasing for months, with more opponents...

www.goacta.org

That Maine Wire article is atrocious. It is little more than a series of poorly-sourced anecdotes. You can do better than that.

The GOACTA article is a little more serious, but has no relevance to what we are discussing.

 

[thebruinbleedstarheelblue]

DEI is not about equal outcomes. It's about equal opportunity. That's a major difference.

Exactly, in the air traffic controller case...its not like the exam is different. The just try to get more diversity in the pipeline.

Do people really think there are different boards for doctors/lawyers etc for minorities.

Even ignoring the fact that nearly all Trunp appointees were vastly less experienced, I don’t understand how people are so easily fooled.

 

[Callatoroy]

DEI is not about equal outcomes. It's about equal opportunity. That's a major difference.

Yes but the practical application is the goal of equal outcomes. And since that is extremely difficult it often leads to lowering standards.

 

[thebruinbleedstarheelblue]

It is often accompanied by lowering standards and there is no place for equal outcomes for all. It is the most unamerican concept ever.

Give an example of any job that has some sort of standard board/certification where there are different standards based on gender/race.

 

[Callatoroy]

That Maine Wire article is atrocious. It is little more than a series of poorly-sourced anecdotes. You can do better than that.

The GOACTA article is a little more serious, but has no relevance to what we are discussing.

Well the dook part has been sourced to death. To me one of the best case studies on DEI is the military. It’s the most pure in terms of how people are viewed, how standards are maintained, and with the least amount of inherent racism.

 

[farce©]

Exactly, in the air traffic controller case...its not like the exam is different. The just try to get more diversity in the pipeline.

Do people really think there are different boards for doctors/lawyers etc for minorities.

Even ignoring the fact that nearly all Trunp appointees were vastly less experienced, I don’t understand how people are so easily fooled.

They’re not fooled, they are simply in denial because they won’t accept truth at odds with their chosen narrative. They will go to great lengths and twist themselves into pretzels to affirm their biases.

It’s hard to blame them. They voted for Donald Trump for Christ sakes, which requires a whole lot of moral compromise so they have to attempt to justify that or they would have to admit their abandonment of their moral and ethical compass.

 

[Callatoroy]

Give an example of any job that has some sort of standard board/certification where there are different standards based on gender/race.

DEI Will Not Be Missed in the Military

Uncover the progress of gender equality in combat roles. Learn how women have excelled as Army Rangers, Navy SEALs, and tank commanders.

gvwire.com

 

[Lando]

I'm definitely someone who believes in ensuring equal opportunity versus ensuring equal outcomes, and as I say frequently on this subject, I believe in hiring the most qualified person above all other criteria, but I don't think DEI necessarily necessitates lowering standards. My understanding of DEI- and admittedly my understandng could be incorrect or incomplete- is that it is in place to ensure that there is fair treatment and full participation in hiring processes for folks from all backgrounds, not just on basis of race, ethnicity, or sex, but also on basis of veteran status, disability status, etc.

Engineering is overwhelmingly male. Last I saw it was 5 or 6 to 1. Even though there has been progress in getting women into engineering programs in college, many leave the field, including those that achieved degrees. Women tend to get shoved into more menial roles and sexual harrassment is widespread. DEI training is often obnoxious, but there are guys who need to be told that telling a woman that her looks are distracting the boys at work is a bad thing to do. If we could clean up those problems we could significantly increase the pool of potential engineers.

Of course some neckbeard would see that a woman was an engineer and start howling about how lowered standards must have gotten her the job. I pity their daughters.

 

[SnoopRob]

I'm definitely someone who believes in ensuring equal opportunity versus ensuring equal outcomes, and as I say frequently on this subject, I believe in hiring the most qualified person above all other criteria, but I don't think DEI necessarily necessitates lowering standards. My understanding of DEI- and admittedly my understandng could be incorrect or incomplete- is that it is in place to ensure that there is fair treatment and full participation in hiring processes for folks from all backgrounds, not just on basis of race, ethnicity, or sex, but also on basis of veteran status, disability status, etc.

In my job, I both hire for my direct staff and oversee my staff hiring their staff members down through the agency.

While we have never called it "DEI", we do have standards about doing everything reasonable to have a diverse (in a multitude of ways) staff at all levels.

What kills me about these discussions is that Republicans act like that when you're hiring for any position, that you can somehow identify an objective "THE BEST" candidate across a wide variety of inputs like technical skills, people skills, project management, leadership abilities, common sense, and many more. As if there is a way to feed all of the candidate resumes into a computer program and the program can spit out, without fail, a numerical score for each candidate that points to the absolute best applicant. (And, yes, such programs exist, but they typically do not do a great job with soft skills and non-technical skills.)

And while occasionally you'll go to hire for a job and have one candidate who stands out far beyond the remaining candidates, in most hiring situations you end up with a small number of final candidates who are all capable of filling the position and doing the job reasonably well, each with specific strengths and weaknesses vis-a-vis the positional requirements plus agency needs, and you are left to select one candidate from this small pool in which any will likely be reasonably successful. In these cases, we strongly favor candidates who bring diversity that we don't currently have to the table because of the greater benefits they will bring to our entire agency. And while we don't call it DEI, it's within the spirit and practice of it.

The other thing we do within our practices toward diversity is seeking out and considering candidates who may not quite the educational opportunities as other candidates when those educational achievements are not critical for the position. That took us going through all of our position descriptions to determine for each the level of educational/degree level we felt was truly required for each position. It also means that we don't default to assuming that a more prestigious college inherently means a "better" candidate before we have looked at other achievements or gone through at least an initial screening interview. On the whole, it has helped us to not only have a more diverse staff, but to also find candidates who turned out to be amazing in their positions whom we would have otherwise missed if we had hired largely based on details on a resume.

 

[Healing]

DEI Will Not Be Missed in the Military

Uncover the progress of gender equality in combat roles. Learn how women have excelled as Army Rangers, Navy SEALs, and tank commanders.

gvwire.com

Has anyone advocated for lower physical standards for soldiers in combat roles?

 

[UNCatTech]

I don't know how anyone could be opposed to the concept of DEI in principle. I do understand that corporate DEI programs can be awkward, clunky, ineffective, and an inefficient use of time and resources that accomplish little if anything tangible. But that is different, in my mind; just because the programmatic implementation of a concept is poor doesn't mean that the actual concept itself is poor.

If that is the case, then those need to be looked into, not blanket statements claiming that all DEI is bad and nothing more than quota systems.

I really like my companies DEI program. It's not about hiring at all, it about understanding your coworkers.