Why are borders important?

[stankeylegjones]

It's not about tourism. It's about ensuring peace. Freedom of movement was one of the three animating principles of European integration dating back to the early 1950s. The goal was to de-emphasize national rivalries in favor of a pan-European identity, to defuse the nationalism that created world wars. The idea is that if a German person's neighbor is French and their co-workers English and their company trades extensively with Italy, that person is not going to be receptive to an exclusionary nationalist movement, and is certainly not going to want to go to war with France or Italy or anyone.

It's worked pretty well, I'd say. There has been very little conflict within the European Community since WWII, which is a marked reversal from its prior history, where there were wars every 20-25 years or so and constant rivalries and tensions.

I thought it was initiated to allow folks to easily move from one country to the next, most notably workers, improving economic disparities.

 

[stankeylegjones]

But drawing a line is easy. We have no trouble determining where NC begins and VA ends. We have no trouble determining whether a crime is committed within the jurisdiction of NC or VA. The line is clear. It doesn't mean that the line has to be vigorously defended or be used to keep people in or out.

I don't understand then what you are asking. Are you asking why every country defends/protects its borders? If so, wouldn't it depend on which country you are talking about, as that country's reasons will be different from another country's reasons?

 

[superrific]

I thought it was initiated to allow folks to easily move from one country to the next, most notably workers, improving economic disparities.

This is Article 3 of the Lisbon Treaty establishing the EU

The Union's aim is to promote peace, its values and the well-being of its peoples.

2. The Union shall offer its citizens an area of freedom, security and justice without internal frontiers, in which the free movement of persons is ensured in conjunction with appropriate measures with respect to external border controls, asylum, immigration and the prevention and combating of crime.

3. The Union shall establish an internal market. It shall work for the sustainable development of Europe based on balanced economic growth and price stability, a highly competitive social market economy, aiming at full employment and social progress, and a high level of protection and improvement of the quality of the environment. It shall promote scientific and technological advance.

It shall combat social exclusion and discrimination, and shall promote social justice and protection, equality between women and men, solidarity between generations and protection of the rights of the child.

It shall promote economic, social and territorial cohesion, and solidarity among Member States.

It shall respect its rich cultural and linguistic diversity, and shall ensure that Europe's cultural heritage is safeguarded and enhanced.

4. The Union shall establish an economic and monetary union whose currency is the euro.

5. In its relations with the wider world, the Union shall uphold and promote its values and interests and contribute to the protection of its citizens. It shall contribute to peace, security, the sustainable development of the Earth, solidarity and mutual respect among peoples, free and fair trade, eradication of poverty and the protection of human rights, in particular the rights of the child, as well as to the strict observance and the development of international law, including respect for the principles of the United Nations Charter.

6. The Union shall pursue its objectives by appropriate means commensurate with the competences which are conferred upon it in the Treaties.

Provision 4 was not initially there, at least not in its current form; it was modified by the Maastricht Treaty that created the euro. That was mid 90s. But the other stuff represent the founding principles. Promoting peace is listed first because it was the most important.

Yes, labor mobility is an aim of the union but it's a lesser goal subsumed within the framework of peace and prosperity as outlined by sections 2 and 3 pasted above.

 

[stankeylegjones]

This is Article 3 of the Lisbon Treaty establishing the EU

The Union's aim is to promote peace, its values and the well-being of its peoples.

2. The Union shall offer its citizens an area of freedom, security and justice without internal frontiers, in which the free movement of persons is ensured in conjunction with appropriate measures with respect to external border controls, asylum, immigration and the prevention and combating of crime.

3. The Union shall establish an internal market. It shall work for the sustainable development of Europe based on balanced economic growth and price stability, a highly competitive social market economy, aiming at full employment and social progress, and a high level of protection and improvement of the quality of the environment. It shall promote scientific and technological advance.

It shall combat social exclusion and discrimination, and shall promote social justice and protection, equality between women and men, solidarity between generations and protection of the rights of the child.

It shall promote economic, social and territorial cohesion, and solidarity among Member States.

It shall respect its rich cultural and linguistic diversity, and shall ensure that Europe's cultural heritage is safeguarded and enhanced.

4. The Union shall establish an economic and monetary union whose currency is the euro.

5. In its relations with the wider world, the Union shall uphold and promote its values and interests and contribute to the protection of its citizens. It shall contribute to peace, security, the sustainable development of the Earth, solidarity and mutual respect among peoples, free and fair trade, eradication of poverty and the protection of human rights, in particular the rights of the child, as well as to the strict observance and the development of international law, including respect for the principles of the United Nations Charter.

6. The Union shall pursue its objectives by appropriate means commensurate with the competences which are conferred upon it in the Treaties.

Provision 4 was not initially there, at least not in its current form; it was modified by the Maastricht Treaty that created the euro. That was mid 90s. But the other stuff represent the founding principles. Promoting peace is listed first because it was the most important.

Yes, labor mobility is an aim of the union but it's a lesser goal subsumed within the framework of peace and prosperity as outlined by sections 2 and 3 pasted above.

Thanks for the post. Here's one that discusses its aim regarding movement of workers:

Borderless Europe: Seven Decades of Free Movement

Between Brexit and COVID-19, Europe’s 31-country zone of free movement has been profoundly tested. Still, the area has constantly evolved over the last 70 years, to include new groups of individuals who can freely move for work, study, or leisure, as well as cover larger geographic areas. This...

www.migrationpolicy.org

 

[superrific]

I don't understand then what you are asking. Are you asking why every country defends/protects its borders? If so, wouldn't it depend on which country you are talking about, as that country's reasons will be different from another country's reasons?

Look at the OP. The topic was inspired by the statement made by CRHeel on another thread.

But there's also something a bit deeper, which is to challenge the assumption that a lot of us have that the issue is simple and straightforward. As we've seen from the responses here, it's actually not so easy to articulate a good reason why we should care about the movement of people across our national border per se. Yes, we need to track criminals and check for smuggled contraband but those are independent goals of their own, and border "security" is but a functional piece of that. If we leave those aside and just concentrate on the idea of "keeping people out," why? Why are national borders in greater need of "strength" than city limits or state borders?

 

[superrific]

Thanks for the post. Here's one that discusses its aim regarding movement of workers:

The initial treaty of Rome was committed to the idea of a free movement of people. Its specific provisions dealt with workers. That's common in multilateral treaties. It's already hard enough to get a whole bunch of countries to agree on stuff; having them agree on the most expansive set of principles is next to impossible. So treaties start with the lower hanging fruit.

As you note, the most pressing problem in Europe was labor mobility. So that's where they started. It was never the intent to finish there. The free movement of workers could have been implemented in a number of different ways that have little to do with integration. Integration was chosen because they were aiming higher than mere labor mobility.

 

[HeelYeah2012]

Trump campaign would’ve probably loved to hold this thread up as Exhibit A of “they want open borders”

 

[stankeylegjones]

Look at the OP. The topic was inspired by the statement made by CRHeel on another thread.

But there's also something a bit deeper, which is to challenge the assumption that a lot of us have that the issue is simple and straightforward. As we've seen from the responses here, it's actually not so easy to articulate a good reason why we should care about the movement of people across our national border per se. Yes, we need to track criminals and check for smuggled contraband but those are independent goals of their own, and border "security" is but a functional piece of that. If we leave those aside and just concentrate on the idea of "keeping people out," why? Why are national borders in greater need of "strength" than city limits or state borders?

You pose interesting questions. I do think though, it really depends on which country you focus on as to why they protect their borders.

 

[ZenMode]

Absolutely free movement of people sounds good in principle and would probably work in more areas of the world than not. It really depends on the cultures involved.

With some minor stipulations, a fully open border between US and Canada? Sure. With some stipulations in place, a fully open border between Mexico and the US? Sure. I don't think our cultures are significantly different.

Flip-flop Mexico and Iran and have a fully open border between the US and Iran? Not realistic even if it is viewed as "right" philosophically.

 

[superrific]

Absolutely free movement of people sounds good in principle and would probably work in more areas of the world than not. It really depends on the cultures involved.

With some minor stipulations, a fully open border between US and Canada? Sure. With some stipulations in place, a fully open border between Mexico and the US? Sure. I don't think our cultures are significantly different.

Flip-flop Mexico and Iran and have a fully open border between the US and Iran? Not realistic even if it is viewed as "right" philosophically.

I confess that I have never given any thought to opening the border between Iran and the US, but I agree with you that it's neither realistic nor desirable.

 

[superrific]

Trump campaign would’ve probably loved to hold this thread up as Exhibit A of “they want open borders”

You're telling on yourself. Nothing about this thread is advocating for open borders. That you can't distinguish a philosophical discussion from a campaign slogan -- well, it's who you are.

To be clear, I'm open-minded re: any and all arguments as to why we have a "responsibility" to have control over our national borders. I'm just hoping that we can understand the issue better. Right now, in the GOP, it's pure xenophobia. And if you want to chortle because I don't think xenophobia is a good basis for policy -- well, that says a lot more about you than me.