2026 Midterm Elections

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Paine said:
None of those quotes are character attacks, and it should be embarrass you to think they are. Structural arguments about incentives and representation are NOT character attacks. Don’t be mad that voters understand how power works when Bernie lays it out.
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You're the one who should be embarrassed, son. "It is hard to believe that you would say the same things to a room full of bankers as you say to working families" is directly an attack on her honesty. Like, there's literally no other meaning to that sentence other than an attack.

"The establishment is terrified of our campaign because they know we are going to change a corrupt system that works for the wealthy and powerful — and Secretary Clinton is part of that establishment" is literally an attack on HRC. It is literally saying that she is part of a corrupt system. If he hadn't added the bit at the end, it would be structural. But he couldn't help himself.

I am assuming that ChatGPT is rendering these quotes faithfully. As I said, I checked with Gemini as well to confirm. Maybe they are both wrong. I'm putting that up front because I'm honest and post in good faith. So if he didn't say those things in the way it's claimed, then perhaps my critique is misplaced (though I sure do remember a lot of things along that vein." But if we accept the quotes, then you're just wrong.
 
superrific said:
You could maybe do without the smug dismissal. Listen, I've been involved in politics since before you were born. Hell, since before I could even vote. Literally. Over the years I have made many a structural critique and do so here quite often.
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“I’ve been in politics longer” isn’t a substitute for analysis. Please never call me “son” again.
 
Paine said:
Bernie didn’t create the salience of Wall Street, donor influence, or elite entanglement, those issues already existed after 2008. If pointing to them landed as a judgment on Clinton’s character, maybe that’s because the structural critique was accurate, not because it was a smear.
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This is ludicrous.

One problem with Bernie's campaign was that it was an unfocused collection of attacks on systems that he didn't understand, and his followers certainly didn't. And since you were probably about 18 at the time or something like that, you almost certainly belong in the category of people who didn't understand the actual issues.

The Trans Pacific Partnership, in particular, was not the menace that Bernie made it out to be. I'm not sure if Bernie was lying about that, because he might have believed the bullshit. Unlike AOC I never sensed that Bernie took any time to learn actual policy economics. He just seemed to want to thunder all the time about a system, without providing any specifics. Like, "the system was rigged" which was just nonsense.

The attacks on Biden's support of bankruptcy law revisions -- while coming later -- were similarly misplaced. They were not corrupt giveaways to credit card companies, and the fact that Bernie continues to call for a 10% cap on interest rates makes the point well. He has never been a serious policy intellectual. He cosplays an intellectual, but he's more Howard Beale than Daniel Moynihan.
 
Paine said:
None of those quotes are character attacks, and it should be embarrass you to think they are. Structural arguments about incentives and representation are NOT character attacks. Don’t be mad that voters understand how power works when Bernie lays it out.
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You are blind to what you choose not to see.
 
Paine said:
“I’ve been in politics longer” isn’t a substitute for analysis. Please never call me “son” again.
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It's not trying to be a substitute for analysis. It is responding to your gratuitous, ill-informed personal attack on me that I should " just admit that structural critiques make you uncomfortable"

As I've said, I've made many structural critiques over the years. They do not make me uncomfortable. What makes me uncomfortable are structural critiques made by people who don't actually understand the structure, because they have chosen to favor ideology over empirical reality. You have quite explicitly said that your interpretation of the world is driven by Marxist analysis, which is not a path to knowledge. It's just walking on a tightrope above a pig stye.

If you don't like me being a dick, then don't be a dick to me.
 
I'm the clown? You high on your own supply? Whatever you want to say about me, the idea that I am somehow unserious is bonkers. Here's a challenge for you. Please explain, in your own words, the causes of the 2008 financial crisis.
 
superrific said:
ChatGPT attributes the following quotes to Bernie, and I'm not sure if it's a literal word-for-word pull, but Gemini confirms that he said it.

“The establishment is terrified of our campaign because they know we are going to change a corrupt system that works for the wealthy and powerful — and Secretary Clinton is part of that establishment.”

"If you are giving speeches to Wall Street behind closed doors for $225,000 a speech, the American people have a right to know what you said.”

“It is hard to believe that you would say the same things to a room full of bankers as you say to working families.”

"If you are dependent on big money interests, you represent those interests — not the American people" (this is particularly silly because obviously HRC was dependent on both groups).

Those are attacks on her character and integrity.
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Thank you Super for finding these . I doubt that Paine will concur. I think that he was a Bernie bro, but he is a good guy despite the fact that he is not in support of incremental change which has moved the country forward for the last 30 years . That said, as an old codger, if I see Bernie transformational revolution politics rule the day before I die, then I will be !00% in Paine's corner.
 
One reason that people are really tired of leftists is that conversations with them always end up going to the same place: "you just don't like my ideas because you're a sellout." I won't say invariably, because that's probably wrong, but it sure feels like the vast majority of the time.

The personal attack varies specifically in nature, but usually it involves a lack of virtue. "You're uncomfortable with structural critiques" is, in leftist speak, an accusation. I'm not sure why Paine thinks I don't speak leftist, but I do. Ultimately, the leftist expects to win arguments intellectually, because s/he has taken the time to compile a substantial amount of knowledge, but does not understand anything deeply. And so when the argument goes against them, they resort to the personal putdown.

Noam Chomsky was a great example of this. The man was an encyclopedia, and in any discussion he could pull out a number of "facts" to support his position. I'll give him that -- he was not like a MAGA liar at all. But his understanding of the issues was superficial and he would have been better off with fewer facts and more introspection as to why the world is the way it is. Because "corruption" is a satisfying narrative but in America at least it is rarely more than part of the story.
 
Paine said:
None of those quotes are character attacks, and it should be embarrass you to think they are. Structural arguments about incentives and representation are NOT character attacks. Don’t be mad that voters understand how power works when Bernie lays it out.
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Been jiving with your writing but this strikes me as akin “do not believe your eyes and ears” type of response.
 
My problem with Bernie was simple: he was not then; he is not now; and he likely never will be a Democrat. Why was he running for the Democratic Party nomination for President? I'm a registered independent. It would strike me as strange and a bit counterproductive for any party to welcome me as their standard-bearer/leader. While I like many things Bernie says, dating back to his days as the Mayor of Burlington, and I would have happily voted for him against Trump, he really needs to join the party if he plans to run for the top office of that party.
 
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