AA / Blackhawk Crash and other Crash and FAA News

[theel4life]

Defend this, board Republicans. Defend your guy.

Fuck every person that voted for this cock sucker.

 

[Calheel]

Why are we even debating this? I'd say the mid-air explosion and subseqeunt crash on the earth's surface had a bit more effect than the apparent water temperature at the crash site. Seriously...

Agreed. Humans rarely survive a fall off the Golden Gate Bridge, which starts at a speed of 0 MPH. A plane falling straight down into the water at a speed of 150 mph is going to kill whoever survived the initial crash. The water temp isn't going to make a meaningful difference.

 

[uncmba]

From The NY Times:
Staffing at the air traffic control tower at Ronald Reagan National Airport was “not normal for the time of day and volume of traffic,” according to an internal preliminary Federal Aviation Administration safety report about the collision that was reviewed by The New York Times.

The controller who was handling helicopters in the airport’s vicinity Wednesday night was also instructing planes that were landing and departing from its runways. Those jobs typically are assigned to two controllers, rather than one.

This increases the workload for the air traffic controller and can complicate the job. One reason is that the controllers can use different radio frequencies to communicate with pilots flying planes and pilots flying helicopters. While the controller is communicating with pilots of the helicopter and the jet, the two sets of pilots may not be able to hear each other.

Like most of the country’s air traffic control facilities, the tower at Reagan airport has been understaffed for years. The tower there was nearly a third below targeted staff levels, with 19 fully certified controllers as of September 2023, according to the most recent Air Traffic Controller Workforce Plan, an annual report to Congress that contains target and actual staffing levels. The targets set by the F.A.A. and the controllers’ union call for 30.

The shortage — caused by years of employee turnover and tight budgets, among other factors — has forced many controllers to work up to six days a week and 10 hours a day.

The F.A.A. did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

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www.nytimes.com

 

[mpaer]

From The NY Times:
Staffing at the air traffic control tower at Ronald Reagan National Airport was “not normal for the time of day and volume of traffic,” according to an internal preliminary Federal Aviation Administration safety report about the collision that was reviewed by The New York Times.

The controller who was handling helicopters in the airport’s vicinity Wednesday night was also instructing planes that were landing and departing from its runways. Those jobs typically are assigned to two controllers, rather than one.

This increases the workload for the air traffic controller and can complicate the job. One reason is that the controllers can use different radio frequencies to communicate with pilots flying planes and pilots flying helicopters. While the controller is communicating with pilots of the helicopter and the jet, the two sets of pilots may not be able to hear each other.

Like most of the country’s air traffic control facilities, the tower at Reagan airport has been understaffed for years. The tower there was nearly a third below targeted staff levels, with 19 fully certified controllers as of September 2023, according to the most recent Air Traffic Controller Workforce Plan, an annual report to Congress that contains target and actual staffing levels. The targets set by the F.A.A. and the controllers’ union call for 30.

The shortage — caused by years of employee turnover and tight budgets, among other factors — has forced many controllers to work up to six days a week and 10 hours a day.

The F.A.A. did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

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www.nytimes.com

So
Likely this..Thanks for the link

 

[uncmba]

Spent a lot of time in that area. Boggles my mind that you would let a helicopter cross an active runway at 200 feet. He could have gone two more miles downriver when the planes would be at 1000 feet and crossed without any issues.

 

[TitanNC]

The 1st office on her Delta flight last night used to work for the regional carrier PSA that worked the American Airlines flight. He knew one of the flight attendants on the flight. And her long time friend recently flew with the crew that was on board last night.

My wife actually flew flight 175 all the time as a normal trip out of Boston that crashed on 911 so this is really hitting home for her. She knew the crew on that flight and she is still dealing with emotions from that. She is just now able to look out the window during aircraft banking because she associates it with planes banking into the twin towers.

I know a former FA who was close friends with one of the FA’s who died in 9/11. She quit the industry because of it.

 

[CFordUNC]

I haven’t quite caught up on this thread so I’m sorry if I’m repeating something that has already been shared, but I’m connecting through CLT right now and it’s very somber here. Apparently the flight crew on the American Airlines flight last night was Charlotte based.

 

[Badbehavior1015]

Impossible, I was lead to believe nothing bad would happen under Trump’s watch.

Only 10 comments before superwhiner mentions Trump. Damn, pimp. Are you still crying? Geeez, go see a therapist.

 

[farce©]

Only 10 comments before superwhiner mentions Trump. Damn, pimp. Are you still crying? Geeez, go see a therapist.

Wrong thread. Try this one for pissing matches.

 

[Badbehavior1015]

Well Trump and his cronies have turned this into a conspiracy/blame discussion anyway. I am putting Trump clips in the blame thread but not sure whether it even makes sense.

Anyone with a brain knew it would be like this. There is no positive reason for anyone to vote for Trump. It's all out of greed, plain ignorance, racism, bigotry, and Christian nationalism.

 

[OahuHiHeel]

Going back to the "training flight" comment. I rather doubt this was an actual training of new pilots or anything like that. More like training personnel for this particular area. If I am wrong, then please correct.

From my earlier post:

My step daughter's boyfriend is a Marine at Joint Basis Anacostia-Bolling in the helicopter unit...
He said those choppers do their maneuvers day and night same flight path daily. They go over their barracks all the time he said. The crash happened just out over the river by the base

 

[superrific]

Agreed. Humans rarely survive a fall off the Golden Gate Bridge, which starts at a speed of 0 MPH. A plane falling straight down into the water at a speed of 150 mph is going to kill whoever survived the initial crash. The water temp isn't going to make a meaningful difference.

Note in advance: this is a digression.

1. If you're comparing to a bridge jump, then you should be talking only about the vertical component of the velocity. Google says that the typical landing aircraft has a vertical velocity between 60-180 feet per minute, which is a few mph. I think you divide fpm by about 90 to get mph. Given that copter impacted from the bottom (if I understand correctly), I imagine it would be fine to model the plane as starting with a velocity of zero.

2. The force on impact for a bridge jumper will almost certainly be higher -- even at equivalent speeds -- to the impact force for a person in a plane, even a plunging plane fusilage. I don't know if planes have crumple zones like cars, but all metal crumples. In addition, there are other elements inside the cabin that provide some buffer, like the seat cushion.

The impact force is given by F = delta (mv)/delta(t). Typically, for catastrophic collisions, the delta t term is small -- probably hundredths of seconds, would be my guess. The mass term will cancel out in the analysis, so we can say that F = delta(v)/delta(t). For that reason, small changes in that delta t have big effects. For instance, if the velocity goes from X to 0 in .01 seconds, that would create 10x less force than in .001 seconds. Thus, even something like a seat cushion could make a difference.

In addition, the plane fusilage is unlikely to bounce. It is likely to slow down greatly upon hitting the water, but its vertical velocity is unlikely to go to zero -- i.e. it will sink into the water some upon impact. So even for the plane fusilage, the delta v will be smaller. Think of it like the difference between diving into a pool and cannonballing.

SO: if we are just addressing the lethality of the impact force, the bridge is considerably more deadly than a fall inside a plane. That would be my analysis. My bachelor's is in physics, but it was long ago.

3. More to the point: the data about water temps was introduced onto the thread, IIRC, from news articles interviewing crash experts. It was those experts who talked about the effects of the water temp. I see no reason to question them. If they thought the water temp would be a factor, I'm going to accept that.

The water temp and the fall, of course, only become relevant for people who survive the initial explosion. And my instinct -- backed by no real knowledge -- is that many if not all people were dead from that, given that we saw quite an explosion. If not the heat from the fuel, the shrapnel would do it. And perhaps the copter rotors, depending on how sturdy they are. I have no idea what happens if a copter rotor runs into a plane fusilage, but it seems plausible that the rotor would stand a fair chance of piercing the metal.

 

[ChileG]

Sounds like we are understaffed, and it is due to budget constraints.
Would be interesting to know if more money was sought to be able to fill the needed positions and why was the funding not approved.

 

[ZenMode]

A CNN reporter just asked a question, during the NTSB press conference, about an LA Times report that the air traffic controller involved was doing the job that is normally done by two people.

 

[superrific]

Spent a lot of time in that area. Boggles my mind that you would let a helicopter cross an active runway at 200 feet. He could have gone two more miles downriver when the planes would be at 1000 feet and crossed without any issues.

That's obviously true of a civilian copter. But this was a military copter, which is presumably in the area as part of the air defense of the Capitol. In that situation, the presence of other aircraft might be a feature, not a bug, for a training or certification mission. IDK. I'm reluctant to say that the people who make these plans are stupid without having a solid basis of knowledge, especially of the copters' missions.

 

[superrific]

A CNN reporter just asked a question, during the NTSB press conference, about an LA Times report that the air traffic controller involved was doing the job that is normally done by two people.

They are separate jobs that can be done by different people, as I understand it. That doesn't necessarily mean that one controller was doing the job of two (though that might have been the case). For instance, let's say there are normally 6 controllers and one gets sick and can't work. The other 5 have to cover the 6ths jobs. That's an increase but it's not a doubling.

 

[nrsair]

From The NY Times:
Staffing at the air traffic control tower at Ronald Reagan National Airport was “not normal for the time of day and volume of traffic,” according to an internal preliminary Federal Aviation Administration safety report about the collision that was reviewed by The New York Times.

The controller who was handling helicopters in the airport’s vicinity Wednesday night was also instructing planes that were landing and departing from its runways. Those jobs typically are assigned to two controllers, rather than one.

This increases the workload for the air traffic controller and can complicate the job. One reason is that the controllers can use different radio frequencies to communicate with pilots flying planes and pilots flying helicopters. While the controller is communicating with pilots of the helicopter and the jet, the two sets of pilots may not be able to hear each other.

Like most of the country’s air traffic control facilities, the tower at Reagan airport has been understaffed for years. The tower there was nearly a third below targeted staff levels, with 19 fully certified controllers as of September 2023, according to the most recent Air Traffic Controller Workforce Plan, an annual report to Congress that contains target and actual staffing levels. The targets set by the F.A.A. and the controllers’ union call for 30.

The shortage — caused by years of employee turnover and tight budgets, among other factors — has forced many controllers to work up to six days a week and 10 hours a day.

The F.A.A. did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

Loading…

www.nytimes.com

That’s interesting. On NPR earlier they had a former commercial pilot and instructor who emphasized that the ATC did a great job throughout the encounter. I wonder what could have gone differently with another ATC there since apparently the helicopter pilot answered in the affirmative when asked if he was monitoring the plane.

 

[Calheel]

Note in advance: this is a digression.

1. If you're comparing to a bridge jump, then you should be talking only about the vertical component of the velocity. Google says that the typical landing aircraft has a vertical velocity between 60-180 feet per minute, which is a few mph. I think you divide fpm by about 90 to get mph. Given that copter impacted from the bottom (if I understand correctly), I imagine it would be fine to model the plane as starting with a velocity of zero.

2. The force on impact for a bridge jumper will almost certainly be higher -- even at equivalent speeds -- to the impact force for a person in a plane, even a plunging plane fusilage. I don't know if planes have crumple zones like cars, but all metal crumples. In addition, there are other elements inside the cabin that provide some buffer, like the seat cushion.

The impact force is given by F = delta (mv)/delta(t). Typically, for catastrophic collisions, the delta t term is small -- probably hundredths of seconds, would be my guess. The mass term will cancel out in the analysis, so we can say that F = delta(v)/delta(t). For that reason, small changes in that delta t have big effects. For instance, if the velocity goes from X to 0 in .01 seconds, that would create 10x less force than in .001 seconds. Thus, even something like a seat cushion could make a difference.

In addition, the plane fusilage is unlikely to bounce. It is likely to slow down greatly upon hitting the water, but its vertical velocity is unlikely to go to zero -- i.e. it will sink into the water some upon impact. So even for the plane fusilage, the delta v will be smaller. Think of it like the difference between diving into a pool and cannonballing.

SO: if we are just addressing the lethality of the impact force, the bridge is considerably more deadly than a fall inside a plane. That would be my analysis. My bachelor's is in physics, but it was long ago.

3. More to the point: the data about water temps was introduced onto the thread, IIRC, from news articles interviewing crash experts. It was those experts who talked about the effects of the water temp. I see no reason to question them. If they thought the water temp would be a factor, I'm going to accept that.

The water temp and the fall, of course, only become relevant for people who survive the initial explosion. And my instinct -- backed by no real knowledge -- is that many if not all people were dead from that, given that we saw quite an explosion. If not the heat from the fuel, the shrapnel would do it. And perhaps the copter rotors, depending on how sturdy they are. I have no idea what happens if a copter rotor runs into a plane fusilage, but it seems plausible that the rotor would stand a fair chance of piercing the metal.

The plane is starting from a much higher height than the bridge jumper. I think the plane altitude was 400 feet or so at the point of impact. The Golden Gate Bridge is 220 feet. You do get some of the parachute not opening cases where the person survives, but I would think the extra 180 feet is significant (even if the forward momentum is canceled out)

More to the point, I am not aware of anyone ever surviving a plane crash when the plane has fallen straight down. When the plane crashes at an angle to the ground it can absorb some of the impact. Are you aware of any plane crashes where anyone survived impact from a straight vertical fall of 400 feet?

 

[ZenMode]

DCA tower staffing was 'not normal' during crash, preliminary FAA report finds​

A preliminary FAA report on the collision found that air traffic control tower staffing at Reagan Washington National Airport (DCA) was "not normal" for the amount of air traffic and for the time of day, a source with knowledge of the situation told NBC News.

The tower typically has a controller that focuses specifically on helicopter traffic. But at the time of the crash last night, the source said, one controller at DCA was overseeing both airplane and helicopter activity.

FAA guidelines do allow for this position to be combined, permitting one controller to control both airplanes and helicopters.

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www.nbcnews.com

 

[Carolina Fever]

I thought air traffic towers have been understaffed for decades.