American political violence — Is there an off-ramp?

[Zoo_View]

Do you think a cool the rhetoric / reach across the aisle candidate could win the nomination for Democrats or Republicans in 2028?

If not, and both sides run a flamethrower, could an independent heal the divide type candidate have a legitimate chance to win a state?

1) No. “A cool the rhetoric/reach across the aisle” approach or candidate won’t work at a Presidential or major statewide election level.

Americans for decades have said they hate negative politics; the problem is they respond to negative politics.

2) An independent running on the “let’s be nice to each other” platform struggles from at least three fronts:

• “Let’s be nice to one another” isn’t a winning message.
• That person is an independent. The Independent is not winning SOLID red or blue states. At best, the Independent wins states such as MN, MI, WI, NV, AZ, PA…..and maybe NC, VA, and GA. I doubt the Independent wins any of those states. Even if the Independent wins ALL of those states and sends the election into the House, the Independent has no or virtually no votes in the House. The Republican wins.
• If a billionaire or cadre of billionaires are willing to fund a candidate sufficiently to challenge the Democratic and Republican nominees, that “Independent” is either going to be under the thumb(s) of the billionaire(s) or he is going to be a charismatic super-billionaire who can fund himself (it’ll have to be a straight white male). The billionaire(s) won’t be happy with a “Kumbaya, Let’s all get along campaign.”

 

[Zoo_View]

I’d agree. At least not until he decides to actually engage in the conversation rather than simply responding with pithy soundbytes.

His comments rise to the pithy level?

 

[sringwal]

His comments rise to the pithy level?

Spelling error. “Pissy.”

 

[Zoo_View]

Just realized that I was looking too far down the road with my response.

ASAP the guilty perpetrators of January 6 must be fully punished. All of them, especially the commanders, planners, and plotters.

It is interesting to imagine whether or not we would be where we are today if Nixon had been made to stand trial and if convicted, suffer the punishment.

We would be where we are if Nixon had been tried and convicted.

We might have reached here sooner.

 

[ChapelHillSooner]

Every day is an opportunity to take the off-ramp from rising political violence in our country. The question is not "if" we'll have the opportunity, the question is "Will we take it?"

I essentially see no way that said off-ramp will be taken in the near to medium-term future barring an outlier event that somehow completely resets the political discussion in this country.

The Republican Party has made it clear that they want political violence as long as the victims are immigrants, people of color, the LGBTQ community, academics...essentially anyone outside the Republican Party. Appeals to and justification for political violence against minorities and Dems is functionally written into the DNA of the Republican Party at this point and it will take either an outlier event of unfathomable significance or a lot of work over a long time for the Republican Party to reform their party.

The Democratic Party has tried taking the "adults in the room" approach during Trump's first term in office and we all know that it accomplished nothing of great value. In response, there is now a rising movement within the Democratic Party to meet the political violence of the right with a willingness to engage in political violence - at least at a verbal or potential level - from the left.

I believe that Super's "prisoner's dilemma" theory is essentially correct at this point, with the caveat that one of the prisoners has a grudge against the other and is more than willing to go to prison himself as long as the other prisoner serves as long of a sentence as possible.

I really have no idea how we get out of our current situation except hope to keep the damage as limited as possible and that something happens to pull us back from the brink.

Few points on this. In your first paragraph I think you made a distinction without a difference. If society does not take the off ramp, I think that could mean that society can’t take the off ramp. Something that requires the commitment of a sufficiently large number of people who are not inclined to change could in many cases be considered a virtual impossibility. Maybe a little argumentative but I don’t think it would be inaccurate to say we can’t take the off ramp.

On people on the right wanting violence against certain groups, that is true for some but definitely not all. What they do want is unlimited power over their political opponents. As long as the political violence serves that goal, it will be allowed. Their individual opinions on that violence may differ greatly but none have any motivation to stop it.

Some scenarios that could pull us a back.

1. A few republicans say enough is enough and they get the votes to remove him. I used to hold out hope for this but now I see it as extremely unlikely.

2. Trump does something horrible, is ordered to stop by SCOTUS, and ignores those orders. At that point the military would have enough moral high ground to get involved. It would have to be something that is seen as an unambiguous assault on democracy (like the banning of any opposition party) and Trump would have to defy SCOTUS over it.

 

[ChapelHillSooner]

I'd be up for a third party whose first platform statement talks about the advertiser-driven dopamine hits given to people when they get outraged by things in their SM.

I can’t believe this still has to be mentioned but a third party who offers any solution would guarantee a republican victory as that person would pull far more from democrats than republicans.

If you root for a third party candidate you better hope that that candidate’s views have little in common with your views.

 

[UNCMSinLS]

Agreed, but I don't see any way that Democrats get back full control of the federal government anytime soon. The Supreme Court is likely locked up for the GOP for a good many years yet, there are more red than blue states which makes winning back the Senate (and especially winning a working majority) extremely difficult, and with increased gerrymandering in red states it's also getting harder for Democrats to win back control there as well.

As for education, as long as we allow vast amounts of public school money to be diverted to vouchers, allow parents (no matter how unqualified) to either homeschool their kids with a fundamentalist, anti-science curriculum or send them to a fundamentalist "Christian" private school for the same purpose, then that's not going to improve anytime soon either. I don't mean to be pessimistic, but I don't see those things happening, at least not in my lifetime.

I probably agree with you, but the effort has to be made. The alternative is blood in the streets.

 

[superrific]

Does anyone else hate Pete Buttigieg's beard? God damn, why, man? You were good looking and youthful without it!

 

[superrific]

I do not trust polls on this issue. What do you think the poll results would have been, March 1994 in Rwanda, about "should there be a massacre"?

I think there are a lot of people who would support political violence but would tell pollsters "only if the other side does it" to justify it either to the pollster or perhaps to themselves.

 

[superrific]

Do you think a cool the rhetoric / reach across the aisle candidate could win the nomination for Democrats or Republicans in 2028?

If not, and both sides run a flamethrower, could an independent heal the divide type candidate have a legitimate chance to win a state?

I hope we don't try that. It's their turn. Obama reached across the aisle, bending over backwards at times, and got nothing but a middle finger. Biden tried to reach across the aisle and mostly got a middle finger.

No more letting them accomplish their priorities while we strive for bipartisanship and get nothing done.

 

[superrific]

There has to be law and order, education, and modeling compassion and empathy. If Trump had been jailed and a younger version of Biden had been in office, we might have avoided what we're looking at now.

First off, Democrats need to gain full control of the federal government (and as many state governments as possible). Republicans have repeatedly shown themselves to be completely incapable of governing. The lawless Supreme Court should be expanded. Citizens United, Heller, Dobbs, presidential immunity, and other horrible decisions from this rogue court need to be quickly overturned. Fox and the conservative media sphere should be sued daily until they stop intentionally lying and defaming. Serious discussions and legislation should address immigration. "Bad hombres" have no home here. Good, hard-working folks should have a path to citizenship. Let's stabilize countries that force their citizens to migrate to the U.S.

Education must be supported from kindergarten to graduate school. We desperately need smarter people to lead us into a potentially perilous future.

Let's take better care of one another. Stop obsessing about yourself. Help your neighbor. Support and expand collective action for its ability to bring us together and get things done.

Just a start here, but you've got to walk before you can run.

1. Why not just replace the Supreme Court? Limit its jurisdiction to nothing, and create a new "inferior" court that will be the last word on all decisions and empowered by Congress to overturn Supreme Court decisions.

2. You can't sue Fox News for defamation every day. There needs to be criminal prohibition, or at least a civilly enforceable financial penalty imposed unconnected to damages.

3. We're going to need a new constitution. I mean, we needed a new constitution a decade and a half ago. But seeing as how almost none of it is functioning well, we need some structural changes.

 

[HandsonFire]

too far gone.....better get prepare for a lot more of it theres no stopping the sheep

Sadly I agree with you.

 

[nycfan]

Does anyone else hate Pete Buttigieg's beard? God damn, why, man? You were good looking and youthful without it!

To look less youthful?

 

[UNCBAdookJD]

We only even get the possibility of an off-ramp once Trump is not involved in politics anymore (to include "king making", fundraising, etc.). Republicans worship him too much and Democrats hate him too much for them to come together in any meaningful way with him involved in anything.

 

[TarSpiel]

I can’t believe this still has to be mentioned but a third party who offers any solution would guarantee a republican victory as that person would pull far more from democrats than republicans.

If you root for a third party candidate you better hope that that candidate’s views have little in common with your views.

Well, my main point was really about the intentionally manufactured outrage, but okay.

 

[UNCatTech]

In a moment of heightened (and it feels like accelerating) political extremism and violence, is there an off-ramp?

Turning the other cheek is portrayed as capitulation to naziism or communism or whatever ism even for relatively minor insults.

How do we bring down the rhetorical temperature? Or perhaps some think the question is should we do so?

The exact same day (about an hour apart in time) that Kirk was assassinated by a young man radicalized by some hatred of Kirk so intense that it led him to plan and carry out the murder, a 16-year-old boy was so thoroughly radicalized that he went through reload after reload of ammo trying to kill his classmates before turning the gun on himself. The main thing that may have limited the casualties was that he only had access to a handgun instead of a more high powered firearm.

Whatever his political or other motivations, the guy who killed Kirk followed certain behaviors of other radicalized mass murderers, including etching symbols on his bullets.

And the head of the FBI offered a frankly odd sign-off to Kirk (“we have the watch and I’ll see you in Valhalla”), that was presumably unintentionally but nonetheless eerily similar to the suicide note of the Christchurch mass killer (“I will see you all in Valhalla”). I’m willing to assume that Kash was just engaging in cosplay based on Avengers movies or maybe cobbling together tough guy bro talk he hears from marines and he is too incompetent to be aware of the Christchurch killer’s sign off.

But a guy in that position ought to be a lot more circumspect about his rhetoric.

So, what can we do? What should we do?

Can we even have a constructive dialogue about this that won’t immediately devolve into some version of Trump’s [/paraphrasing] radicals on my side are justified and radicals in the other side are evil [/end] framing?

I believe we can, at least here, if we stop looking at the past and start looking for areas that we agree on.

I believe that most here believe we need to create jobs and close the income and wealth gaps. Maybe we start with something like that but only ideas, policy, and possible solutions. Not name calling or history of ones perception of the other party.

I believe that people want to be heard. I believe that people want to live their best lives.

 

[UNCatTech]

I can only look to other times of great polarization that we made it through to the other side...

The War for Independence
The Civil War
The Civil Rights Movement
The Vietnam War

There were other lesser schisms...in fact, we've always been at odds with one another it appears as we look back over the historical record. This is one of the most telling reality checks that I get as I work in various ways in Newspaper.com.

A lot of damage, destruction, and death in our past.

Listen to the podcast I linked on the podcast thread where the pod save America guys interview Heather Cox Richardson. She mentions some other times in history where she felt we were this divided and survived and reversed course.

 

[UNCatTech]

Today my company sent out our annual "Total Rewards" summary, where they go into detail about the cost of our benefits and how much our total compensation comes to beyond our salary.

Our government agencies should start doing this. Show people that they do get benefits from their tax dollars.

 

[UNCatTech]

I saw Ramit Sethi live today, as he mentioned several times, it's often how we say things.

Like instead of saying "Why the fuck do you think that", we can try "Please help me understand what brought you to that position".

 

[UNCatTech]

I would feel much better about it if we had a President who could be a leader in the process of bringing down the temperature and reaching out for reconciliation. But I suspect even Trump supporters will admit that is not a role he will ever accept. He is an antagonist and will only make matters worse. I truly do not see an off-ramp with Trump as President, especially given the people he has chosen to surround himself with. There is not a peacemaker in this administration.

This is one of the primary variables that will be extremely hard to overcome and could keep us from ever turning the ship around.