BLAME GAME

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Make him justify his border claims. Make him justify his "They eating the pets." Make him answer to any of the numerous false claims he made. Passing it off as Trump being Trump is sheer unmitigated bullshit. Fwiw, those same standards should apply to Biden as well or any party or candidate.
Ironically, I think the border claims are largely valid. I don't remember where I found the table, but it showed, I believe, over the last X number of years, the first three years of Biden's term were all higher than all but one of the past years.

In regard to the obvious lies like eating pets, how do you get to him to make him justify the claims? It's not like he does a lot of sit-down interviews with "MSM".
 
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How do they explain when Trump is claiming the opposite and no one is willing to acknowledge the validity of one side or the other? Fwiw, I don't think this should be just about this year and these candidates. It should be about no party or no candidate being treated this uncritically.
I don’t know. With words?

Include in their the differences between the two in handling the debt, social sexual and Medicare, taxes, and investment in energy.
 
I really disagree with this framing. The US was not some moral exemplar up until 2016. That is the sort of thinking that gets Liz Cheney stumping for Kamala Harris.
That wasn’t my point. My point was that despite the way many Americans have viewed this country, we were nothing special or unique. And the fact that we have been following the same volatile and fluctuating political/ideological course as much of the rest of the world over the past ~10 years should make that obvious to everyone by now, and disprove the historical notions of American exceptionalism.
 
That Biden debate performance against Trump sure didn't help things. It made the whole party look incompetent and there was no selling any of the success the Biden admin had over the past 4 years or their vision for the next 4 years.
 
Ironically, I think the border claims are largely valid. I don't remember where I found the table, but it showed, I believe, over the last X number of years, the first three years of Biden's term were all higher than all but one of the past years.

In regard to the obvious lies, like eating pets, how do you get to him to make him justify the claims? It's not like he does a lot of sit-down interviews with "MSM".
How much higher and how far back did you look? I would have expected a spike after the Covid restrictions and unconstitutional laws were lifted and you could buy toilet paper again. We weren't the best place to come to doing that time. Any thinking person would expect a boost when things got better. My sense of the figures is that the increase started under Trump's last months despite those restrictions and that the number is not remarkably greater overall than it has been for the last 15 years or so. Do you have something that disputes that and accounts for what seems to be a remarkable overreaction?
 
Can anyone? The Democratic party has too large an umbrella, which leads to infighting. Maybe a viable third party might help balance things out but IDK.
I think the umbrella issue is an important because it covers a wide range of views and often conflicting views. For example, how do you keep Jews and Muslim terrorist sympathizers happy?
 
How much higher and how far back did you look? I would have expected a spike after the Covid restrictions and unconstitutional laws were lifted and you could buy toilet paper again. We weren't the best place to come to doing that time. Any thinking person would expect a boost when things got better. My sense of the figures is that the increase started under Trump's last months despite those restrictions and that the number is not remarkably greater overall than it has been for the last 15 years or so. Do you have something that disputes that and accounts for what seems to be a remarkable overreaction?
There are several different designations for people encountered and people leaving. I'm not going to claim to know what each of them means, but here's some info. The last table is the one that I mentioned as being one I found previously.

SR_24.09.20_MigrantEncounters_1.png


Screenshot 2025-01-22 8.52.34 AM - Display 1.png


Screenshot 2025-01-22 8.54.21 AM - Display 1.png

 
There are several different designations for people encountered and people leaving. I'm not going to claim to know what each of them means, but here's some info. The last table is the one that I mentioned as being one I found previously.

SR_24.09.20_MigrantEncounters_1.png


Screenshot 2025-01-22 8.52.34 AM - Display 1.png


Screenshot 2025-01-22 8.54.21 AM - Display 1.png

This seems more relevant to me.


The unauthorized immigrant population in the United States grew to 11.0 million in 2022, according to new Pew Research Center estimates based on the 2022 American Community Survey, the most recent year available. The increase from 10.5 million in 2021 reversed a long-term downward trend from 2007 to 2019. This is the first sustained increase in the unauthorized immigrant population since the period from 2005 to 2007.

However, the number of unauthorized immigrants living in the U.S. in 2022 was still below the peak of 12.2 million in 2007.

Add to that the sharp decrease of encounters in 2024 as mentioned in your links and I just don't see that border crisis.
 
While I certainly recognize the need for Democrats to be introspective about the election loss, and I recognize the need for there to be significant change in leadership in the party moving forward, I don't think that Dems should spend too much time pointing fingers, either at one another or at Republicans. I think the election results are pretty easy to explain and it doesn't require too much of a deep dive analysis to figure out the what, how, and why it happened the way that it did.

They can parse all kinds of electoral data and polling and demographic shifts and swing state shifts and things like that, but I think Democrats lost for a few key reasons, almost all of which (not *all* of which, but most of which, IMO) were outside of their control.

1. The Trump/MAGA movement is a freight train and has been for going on a decade now. I'm not nearly intelligent enough to understand, much less articulate, why it is so invincible electorally, but it is. It took a perfect storm of a unicorn-type once-in-a-hundred years global pandemic to temporarily derail it. I believe that if COVID doesn't happen, or hell, if Trump had managed to even display a modicum of leadership early on when it did happen, he'd have cruised to a relatively easy re-election in 2020. Once we were no longer in a pandemic environment, and Trump was able to successfully run *again* as an outsider, he picked up right where he left off.

2. There was a worldwide rejection of incumbent administrations all across the globe in the wake of the pandemic. Not a thing any of those administrations could have reasonably done, IMO, when people were so disenfranchised with the status quo. Had the United States been the lone, or one of the very few, incumbent administrations that lost, I'd be alarmed. But it was a worldwide phenomenon. Trump was at the right place, at the right time with the exact kind of. movement with the exact kind of following needed to take advantage.

3. The vast majority of people don't pay close attention to politics, don't care about policy implications at an elementary level much less at a granular and nuanced level, don't spend their time wading through the depths of the day to day minutiae of politics, and IMO vote predominantly based upon theirs and their immediate family's own economic self-interests (and I'm certainly not chiding them for it or saying any of the above is wrong or bad). There are plenty of Trump voters, or Democratic non-voters (as in, literally didn't show up at all) who, for one reason or another (or many) do not have the access or the desire to access- or both- to the nuanced information that political geeks like us have. They showed up (or didn't show up) to the voting booth in November and knew a handful of key things: 1. America seemed to be flourishing economically during the pre-COVID years under Trump; 2. America was no longer flourishing economically in their minds because of the higher prices caused by myriad of inflationary issues affecting us post-pandemic; 3. the incumbent administration must be punished for #2.

Those are the three primary reasons why I think that the Democrats lost, and I don't believe that they could have done anything to mitigate it. I think that these three reasons above, alone, would have delivered a Trump victory.

I also believe that there were some secondary reasons that the Dems lost, reasons that *were* in their control, but reasons that I personally do not believe were necessarily the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back (though I suppose it could be easily argued that losing any votes on the margins for any of the reasons below were critically decisive).

1. I think that the Dems got punished because Joe Biden got exposed in as publicly humiliating of a way as is possible as being physically (and perhaps mentally) unable to continue to perform the most important, most high stress job in the world. I truly believe that the Dems lost the election on around 9:10 PM ET on Thursday, June 27, 2024.

2. I think that Democrats enabled themselves to be suckered into far too many culture war battles that they simply cannot win. To be very clear, I believe wholeheartedly that being willing to fight to the mat on behalf of the marginalized is one of the most noble things any politician or political party can do. I truly believe that the Dems were well-intentioned, and morally and ethically correct, to try to stand up for our LGBTQ brothers and sisters. I also believe that, lately, the Dems bring a Nerf gun to a bazooka fight every time that they try to square off with Republicans over culture war issues. It's not all their fault- the GOP has an immense, almost invincible advantage in 1. having an enormously effective media ecosystem, and 2. an American voting populace that is still largely rural, largely non-college-educated, and largely socially conservative. But fighting the GOP on culture war issues right now is about as effective as fighting a pit full of vipers in an underground enclosure with both arms tied behind your back. Dems need to focus on learning how to speak to more Americans in more places, and they need to do so without sounding like they just came from tea time in the faculty lounge. Nobody in rural America or blue collar America or middle class America cares much about "Latin*x*" or "unhoused persons" or pronouns or things of that nature when a pack of eggs at Food Lion is $10.

All of the above to say, I think that the Dems should spend more time figuring out to listen to and learn from the swing voters, rural voters, non-college-educated voters, young voters, etc. who swung the election to Trump. I don't mean that Dems need to waste any time trying to reach the Proud Boy, Oathkeeper, QAnon, Trump-flags-stickers-and-banners-on-literally-everything-they-own types. Those people aren't going to change their minds and it's a complete waste of time to expend energy or resources to attempt to do so. And those people aren't the ones who win or lose elections, anyway.
 
3. The vast majority of people don't pay close attention to politics, don't care about policy implications at an elementary level much less at a granular and nuanced level, don't spend their time wading through the depths of the day to day minutiae of politics, and IMO vote predominantly based upon theirs and their immediate family's own economic self-interests (and I'm certainly not chiding them for it or saying any of the above is wrong or bad).
They don't vote on their economic self-interest. They vote against that interest routinely. Maybe that's because they don't understand things, in part because they don't pay attention, but the FO is coming after the FA.

If Trump doesn't exempt supply chain movements from his tariff order, he will likely decimate the American car industry in the short term and perhaps permanently. Hey all you autoworkers, yeah you, the guys who won a major contract in part because Biden had your backs -- you ready for your hometowns to be Flintified? Gonna be fun hanging out with your MAGA homies in the unemployment line.

A 25% tariff on a product every time it crosses the border would probably double the price of a new automobile. Maybe a little less than that. Nonetheless, it will make American cars completely unaffordable to Americans and uncompetitive abroad (even before accounting for the retaliatory tariffs).

They knew this. It was explained to them many times. The ones who voted for Trump were not doing so out of economic self-interest.
 
While I certainly recognize the need for Democrats to be introspective about the election loss, and I recognize the need for there to be significant change in leadership in the party moving forward, I don't think that Dems should spend too much time pointing fingers, either at one another or at Republicans. I think the election results are pretty easy to explain and it doesn't require too much of a deep dive analysis to figure out the what, how, and why it happened the way that it did.

They can parse all kinds of electoral data and polling and demographic shifts and swing state shifts and things like that, but I think Democrats lost for a few key reasons, almost all of which (not *all* of which, but most of which, IMO) were outside of their control.

1. The Trump/MAGA movement is a freight train and has been for going on a decade now. I'm not nearly intelligent enough to understand, much less articulate, why it is so invincible electorally, but it is. It took a perfect storm of a unicorn-type once-in-a-hundred years global pandemic to temporarily derail it. I believe that if COVID doesn't happen, or hell, if Trump had managed to even display a modicum of leadership early on when it did happen, he'd have cruised to a relatively easy re-election in 2020. Once we were no longer in a pandemic environment, and Trump was able to successfully run *again* as an outsider, he picked up right where he left off.

2. There was a worldwide rejection of incumbent administrations all across the globe in the wake of the pandemic. Not a thing any of those administrations could have reasonably done, IMO, when people were so disenfranchised with the status quo. Had the United States been the lone, or one of the very few, incumbent administrations that lost, I'd be alarmed. But it was a worldwide phenomenon. Trump was at the right place, at the right time with the exact kind of. movement with the exact kind of following needed to take advantage.

3. The vast majority of people don't pay close attention to politics, don't care about policy implications at an elementary level much less at a granular and nuanced level, don't spend their time wading through the depths of the day to day minutiae of politics, and IMO vote predominantly based upon theirs and their immediate family's own economic self-interests (and I'm certainly not chiding them for it or saying any of the above is wrong or bad). There are plenty of Trump voters, or Democratic non-voters (as in, literally didn't show up at all) who, for one reason or another (or many) do not have the access or the desire to access- or both- to the nuanced information that political geeks like us have. They showed up (or didn't show up) to the voting booth in November and knew a handful of key things: 1. America seemed to be flourishing economically during the pre-COVID years under Trump; 2. America was no longer flourishing economically in their minds because of the higher prices caused by myriad of inflationary issues affecting us post-pandemic; 3. the incumbent administration must be punished for #2.

Those are the three primary reasons why I think that the Democrats lost, and I don't believe that they could have done anything to mitigate it. I think that these three reasons above, alone, would have delivered a Trump victory.

I also believe that there were some secondary reasons that the Dems lost, reasons that *were* in their control, but reasons that I personally do not believe were necessarily the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back (though I suppose it could be easily argued that losing any votes on the margins for any of the reasons below were critically decisive).

1. I think that the Dems got punished because Joe Biden got exposed in as publicly humiliating of a way as is possible as being physically (and perhaps mentally) unable to continue to perform the most important, most high stress job in the world. I truly believe that the Dems lost the election on around 9:10 PM ET on Thursday, June 27, 2024.

2. I think that Democrats enabled themselves to be suckered into far too many culture war battles that they simply cannot win. To be very clear, I believe wholeheartedly that being willing to fight to the mat on behalf of the marginalized is one of the most noble things any politician or political party can do. I truly believe that the Dems were well-intentioned, and morally and ethically correct, to try to stand up for our LGBTQ brothers and sisters. I also believe that, lately, the Dems bring a Nerf gun to a bazooka fight every time that they try to square off with Republicans over culture war issues. It's not all their fault- the GOP has an immense, almost invincible advantage in 1. having an enormously effective media ecosystem, and 2. an American voting populace that is still largely rural, largely non-college-educated, and largely socially conservative. But fighting the GOP on culture war issues right now is about as effective as fighting a pit full of vipers in an underground enclosure with both arms tied behind your back. Dems need to focus on learning how to speak to more Americans in more places, and they need to do so without sounding like they just came from tea time in the faculty lounge. Nobody in rural America or blue collar America or middle class America cares much about "Latin*x*" or "unhoused persons" or pronouns or things of that nature when a pack of eggs at Food Lion is $10.

All of the above to say, I think that the Dems should spend more time figuring out to listen to and learn from the swing voters, rural voters, non-college-educated voters, young voters, etc. who swung the election to Trump. I don't mean that Dems need to waste any time trying to reach the Proud Boy, Oathkeeper, QAnon, Trump-flags-stickers-and-banners-on-literally-everything-they-own types. Those people aren't going to change their minds and it's a complete waste of time to expend energy or resources to attempt to do so. And those people aren't the ones who win or lose elections, anyway.
I regret opening this thread, like others thinking it was something else. The opening post is ridiculous in its false bifurcation, but the post I quote is on target, especially to me in part A, 3, and part B, 2.

I do want to add a point I have made dozens of times over, ever since 2016: in the top dozen or so policy direction and decision questions, big to huge majorities of the American people agree with Democratic domestic policy, foreign policy, and political procedural questions. LIkewise, poll after poll after poll over decades demonstrate that they reject and even hate many Republican agenda issues as well (like decisions on abortion that bring about the suffering and deaths of young women, and massive tax cuts for the hyper-wealthy, as a top examples). They vote for Republicans for other reasons--this is maddening but now a long term fixture of extreme cultural and education problems in America, not to mention the constituency that favors Democratic policy, and identifies as Democratic Party voters, simply not getting up to go vote often enough. Trump cultists and Christian fundamentalists (that Venn diagram overlap now is massive) all get out and vote every time, with extreme reliability.
 
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