California Fires - Politics of Blame

[SnoopRob]

The problem is that all the 'obvious trolls' are Republicans, who have opposing opinions. I typically disagree (often vehemently) with their opinions, as do many others on this board, and this ends up looking like a 'pissing match.' However, if you don't respond to such trolls, you get an echo chamber, which is boring.

So better to argue with idiots, charlatans, and fools for a little excitement than have a reasonably intelligent discussion based in facts that largely contains agreement?

 

[superrific]

At least you admit it. I gotta say though that saying anyone who disagrees with me is a troll is pretty shallow and weak. But respect for owning it.

Calling you a troll is a compliment compared to the only other explanation for your posts.

 

[superrific]

So better to argue with idiots, charlatans, and fools for a little excitement than have a reasonably intelligent discussion based in facts that largely contains agreement?

The problem is that this is a prisoners' dilemma game. It's very hard to get to the ideal outcome without rules pushing in that direction, because for a lot of posters (including me on occasion) the choice to engage strictly dominates the one not to.

Collective action problems are difficult to solve without a central authority making rules. It's why we have zoning. It's why we have eminent domain.

 

[Callatoroy]

Then what the fuck are you doing on this thread?

Here's the Trump tweet that started this discussion --



And here's what I asked about it this morning --

"Ramrouser? Callatoroy? PandemicBlue? One of you want to weigh in on this? You want to try to defend your president dishonestly attacking the people trying to deal with an active natural disaster just because they happen to be Democrats?

"If you're going to be meaningful contributors to this board, we need to hear your input on things like this."


You responded to that post. What the hell are you doing if you're not defending Trump?

My response to you was saying your focus was misplaced and directed at trump when it should be focused on state and local officials. That isn't a defense of trump. That's ignoring trump. I have said repeatedly that this isn't about trump but you want to make it about him. trump inserted himself into the story but the story is 3000 miles away and he isn't the president.

 

[Callatoroy]

So better to argue with idiots, charlatans, and fools for a little excitement than have a reasonably intelligent discussion based in facts that largely contains agreement?

lol at you thinking infinite posts whining about trump = intelligent discussion. Unless you think trying to create new and witty ways to whine is being intelligent.

 

[Bobfripp]

So better to argue with idiots, charlatans, and fools for a little excitement than have a reasonably intelligent discussion based in facts that largely contains agreement?

But then we're just debating amongst ourselves, which is often interesting, but there's very little dialectical thinking going on, just patting ourselves on the back for how smart we are.

 

[Callatoroy]

But then we're just debating amongst ourselves, which is often interesting, but there's very little dialectical thinking going on, just patting ourselves on the back for how smart we are.

You tell em bob. Snoop is part of the censorship group. His answer was to ban people he disagreed with.

 

[superrific]

My response to you was saying your focus was misplaced and directed at trump when it should be focused on state and local officials.

You have yet to provide a single shred of actual evidence that any state or local officials were responsible for this problem. Your hilarious link to the NY Post article contained no actual information (not a surprise).

 

[superrific]

But then we're just debating amongst ourselves, which is often interesting, but there's very little dialectical thinking going on, just patting ourselves on the back for how smart we are.

Again, the problem here is that debating among ourselves requires time, focus and critical thinking. That's because those discussions would be very high level. But not everyone has time for that. By contrast, calling out trolls is easy.

If I'm feeling sluggish and having trouble working (like today!) I can look at the board to distract me (or perhaps as warmup). And the lowest hanging fruit there -- i.e. the one most likely to help me gain energy -- is taking on the right-wingers' BS. I'm guessing this is true for many other posters.

That's why, I would think, that so many boards have active content moderation. Ignoring trolls is a collective action problem that is hard to solve.

 

[MyMaster]

Gravity, motherfucker -- do you understand it? Blame the mayor again. I dare you, I double dare you motherfucker.

This is hilarious! You are one dumb motherfucker!

 

[thebruinbleedstarheelblue]

This is hilarious! You are one dumb motherfucker!

This is so dumb like the culture war Trump created over covid.

This jackass administration is starting with a bang.

 

[Bobfripp]

Again, the problem here is that debating among ourselves requires time, focus and critical thinking. That's because those discussions would be very high level. But not everyone has time for that. By contrast, calling out trolls is easy

This is all true. And I'll admit I don't have the requisite expertise in many areas to contribute high level ideas to some discussions, but I try.

 

[Bobfripp]

This is hilarious! You are one dumb motherfucker!

What an impressive, thoughtful first post! Welcome to the board, motherfucker!

 

[Callatoroy]

You have yet to provide a single shred of actual evidence that any state or local officials were responsible for this problem. Your hilarious link to the NY Post article contained no actual information (not a surprise).

There was lots of actual evidence. Assuming one can be objective. You would agree that CA has a rich history in dealing with fires driven by high winds? If you agree to that then you should know that clearing brush (fuel) out of areas prone to fires is vital to helping mitigate that. That apparently was neglected for years. Why? As stated by a firefighter, it isn't uncommon, (given leaky pipes - his words) for hydrants to run out of water (even on a house fire). This also happened on other recent high profile fires. Not learning from those and not understanding the flow of water to the higher elevations, as well as leaking pipes is an infrastructure, planning, foresight, and budgeting issue. No traffic direction out of the areas and the gridlock that ensued is a direct result of managerial failure. The mayor gambled and lost on her decision to leave in spite of worsening conditions. ("The National Weather Service began warning of potentially strong winds — amid “extreme fire conditions” — on Thursday, two days before Bass left for Ghana. Those warnings intensified over the subsequent days. By Monday, officials were bracing for a potentially life-threatening and destructive windstorm.") This is more managerial failure. I will just leave it there and not get into budgeting cuts and other issues but clearly there is evidence that officials contributed to the enormity of the fire.

 

[Healing]

But then we're just debating amongst ourselves, which is often interesting, but there's very little dialectical thinking going on, just patting ourselves on the back for how smart we are.

Fwiw, the “debating amongst ourselves” has unequivocally taught me more about political philosophy, law, political action strategies, etiology of the moment, and history, since the formation of this board seven-ish months ago, than I’ve learned in ten years from ttump supporters.

When your movement is fueled by pathological insecurity, narcissism, and hate (and billionaire overlords) truth is rarely on your side; thus, magas have fabricated a system of self affirming delusions and in doing so have rendered their weight in debate (hell, in cursory discourse) that of a helium balloon. In near literal terms, I don’t take what a maga says at face value. I assume they are lying or ignorant or machinating. What I learn from them, on this board, is merely the often hateful, unoriginal right-wing propaganda screed du jour.

I can learn what these maga trolls have to offer by spending 10 mins on various reddit subs, about once a week, or take 5 min to scan ttump’s verbal equivalent of shitting in his hand and rubbing it on his face, in the ttump catch-all thread (bc all maga does is parrot him). And to be clear, if we had dyed in the wool magas who debated positions from an evidentiary standpoint AND stood up to cross exam, I’d agree with your position. However, EVERY SINGLE maga eventually turns troll bc
1. It’s exceedingly rare for the evidence to favor their positions
2. Trump has taught them, and/or affirmed their nature, to never admit they’re wrong
3. as result of #2, when their [ahem], shall we say, facile positions get deconstructed they dig deeper and deeper into the fetid pit of right-wing fabrication, AND when that doesn’t work, their personalities and marching orders demand that they disengage from factual debate and turn to straw men, red herrings, and outright trolling.

Everyone has their reason for engaging maga trolls. While that engagement is my least preferred part of this board, and even captures me at times, this board is a lot of things to a lot of people. However, I contend our resident magas aren’t offering anything that scanning ttump’s belligerent tweets don’t offer, aside from confirmation of their very predictable incorporation of talking points and marching orders.

 

[Bobfripp]

Fwiw, the “debating amongst ourselves” has unequivocally taught me more about political philosophy, law, political action strategies, etiology of the moment, and history, since the formation of this board seven-ish months ago, than I’ve learned in ten years from ttump supporters.

When your movement is fueled by pathological insecurity, narcissism, and hate (and billionaire overlords) truth is rarely on your side; thus, magas have fabricated a system of self affirming delusions and in doing so have rendered their weight in debate (hell, in cursory discourse) that of a helium balloon. In near literal terms, I don’t take what a maga says at face value. I assume they are lying or ignorant or machinating. What I learn from them, on this board, is merely the often hateful, unoriginal right-wing propaganda screed du jour.

I can learn what these maga trolls have to offer by spending 10 mins on various reddit subs, about once a week, or take 5 min to scan ttump’s verbal equivalent of shitting in his hand and rubbing it on his face in the ttump catch-all thread (bc all maga does is parrot him). And to be clear, if we had dyed in the wool magas who debated positions from an evidentiary standpoint AND stood up to cross exam, I’d agree with your position. However, EVERY SINGLE maga eventually turns troll bc
1. It’s exceedingly rare for the evidence to favor their positions
2. Trump has taught them, and/or affirmed their nature, to never admit they’re wrong
3. as result of #2, when their [ahem], shall we say, facile positions get deconstructed they dig deeper and deeper into the fetid pit of right-wing fabrication, AND when that doesn’t work, their personalities and marching orders demand that they disengage from factual debate and turn to straw men, red herrings, and outright trolling.

Everyone has their reason for engaging maga trolls. While that engagement is my least preferred part of this board, and even captures me at times, this board is a lot of things to a lot of people. However, I contend our resident magas aren’t offering anything that scanning ttump’s belligerent tweets don’t offer, aside from confirmation of their very predictable incorporation of talking points and marching orders.

And this thinking is exactly why the Pubs call us elites. I'm a PhD scientist, but in a field well outside of politics, economics, and the culture wars. I suggest, engage with these folks, despite your revulsion. i.e., get over yourself.

If you want erudite discussion about politics, economics, etc.. there are probably Reddit forums were you can get your needs met. Is it this forum? I don't know.

 

[Zoo_View]

This is hilarious! You are one dumb motherfucker!

I wonder which former ZZLP poaster this is?

 

[Lando]

And this thinking is exactly why the Pubs call us elites.

Cool.

 

[nycfan]

Alright, for the love of … whatever you love, could you guys calm down a bit?

Whoever @MyMaster is game in rhetorical guns blazing but using the same personal attack language already prevalent here the last several pages.

I know it is a political pissing match about a blazing inferno but could everyone take a breath dial back to say 7 or 8 instead of 11?

 

[Healing]

And this thinking is exactly why the Pubs call us elites. I'm a PhD scientist, but in a field well outside of politics, economics, and the culture wars. I suggest, engage with these folks, despite your revulsion. i.e., get over yourself.

If you want erudite discussion about politics, economics, etc.. there are probably Reddit forums were you can get your needs met. Is it this forum? I don't know.

Nah. I engage with maga every single day, in person, and do so professionally. I’m not here to listen to trolls. I’ve done that for many, many years, and in good faith for the first several years. I sought understanding. They have never once offered the same, nor has their core response and aggrievement cycle changed in those ten years.

We’re a decade into this - I didn’t just fall off the turnip truck.

Also, I’ll reiterate “Everyone has their reason for engaging maga trolls. While that engagement is my least preferred part of this board, and even captures me at times, this board is a lot of things to a lot of people.”, and the fact this line of discussion is specifically about trolling.