Changing Tenor in HR Departments

Meh... DEI was a blow to average performing white guys who expected to move up if they paid their dues (i.e., hung around doing mediocre work).
I remember reading a biography of Jackie Robinson integrating the Major Leagues and it noted that many of the mediocre white players were among those who were the most opposed to integrating baseball, because they knew it would mean the end of their playing careers in the Major Leagues. Some of the opposition to Robinson was racism, but much of it was also the plain fear of having to compete against top-notch black talent. Hall of Famer Ted Williams said as much. And from what I can see that attitude and sense of entitlement by many white men hasn't changed much in all the decades since then, and not just for baseball, but in all career fields.
 
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Do you have hard data that the new right would be for affirmative action for men in college admissions? I find that claim pretty fantastical.
I've read a couple of articles talking about men's admissions already being helped. One was discussing the numbers at Ivy league schools. The numbers they used showed that if admissions were strictly based on academics, and didn't try to balance make/ female then the number of males accepted would drop by about 30%.
 
I agree with super on this one. Whether one agrees with it or not, the author describes a very real source of frustration among young people.
It's not just about agreeing or not. It isn't our place to tell people how they should feel internally. The author was saying specifically he was not angry at the minorities who got the position. That is the right attitude.

Humans are going to have frustrations. That's inevitable. Our moral duty is not to project our frustrations onto other people. It is to avoid characterizing personal disappointment as hostility to out-groups. Our duty is to accept that misfortune happens, which demands empathy of those who struggle AND no scapegoating of others. It is never a duty to silence people.

The problem is that 99% of what comes out as grievances completely fails that moral test. The right-wing is nothing without its scapegoats. That's all they seem capable of.

So when there's a guy who's not scapegoating, he shouldn't be harshed on. Maybe he secretly scapegoats; who knows. Maybe he's scapegoated elsewhere. I don't know. But this article is not scapegoating. The disclaimer I cited above occurred at the end, but it wasn't tacked on. The entire logic of the piece is "white Gen Xers failed me," which is a completely different concept than what we almost always hear from MAGA.
 
I've read a couple of articles talking about men's admissions already being helped. One was discussing the numbers at Ivy league schools. The numbers they used showed that if admissions were strictly based on academics, and didn't try to balance make/ female then the number of males accepted would drop by about 30%.
Are these ivy league administrators members of the new right? That seems even more fantastical.
 
I remember reading a biography of Jackie Robinson integrating the Major Leagues and it noted that many of the mediocre white players were among those who were the most opposed to integrating baseball, because they knew it would mean the end of their playing careers in the Major Leagues. Some of the opposition to Robinson was racism, but much of it was also the plain fear of having to compete against top-notch black talent. Hall of Famer Ted Williams said as much. And from what I can see that attitude and sense of entitlement by many white men hasn't changed much in all the decades since then, and not just for baseball, but in all career fields.
I'm sure that happened but its not really a valid comparison to DEI. Those owners weren't hiring black players over better white players just to fill some diversity goals.
 
I'm not following the "new right" discussion.

I'm saying that men already recieve affirmative action in college admissions and the Anti-DEI movement may actually hurt male enrollment.

Why do men fare better than women in the college admission process? - The Brown Daily Herald Why do men fare better than women in the college admission process?
Sunnyheel said that the new right was hoping to end DEI in favor of affirmative action for white men in college admissions.

While I am sure there are some people that would want that, I don't feel like that's the aim of the overwhelming majority of conservatives that want to end DEI in college admissions. I think most conservatives want to end racial preferences whether they be black white or purple.

So I replied to Sunnyheel asking if there was any data that the new right was hoping to use racial preferences in favor of white men. Then you noted that college administrators are hoping to increase male enrollment. That's very likely true but in the context of speaking about the new right, I felt like it was extremely unlikely that most college administrators would be defined as members of the new right.
 
While I am sure there are some people that would want that, I don't feel like that's the aim of the overwhelming majority of conservatives that want to end DEI in college admissions. I think most conservatives want to end racial preferences whether they be black white or purple.
The pretzel logic it takes to square these statements with even a casual awareness of what conservatives have said in various media or what elected/appointed MAGA have done in officials acts is a momentous achievement in self delusion.
 
By that same token, DEI was a boon to mediocre minorities and a blow to talented minorities who weren't given the credit they earned.
Why is it that it offends you when it's mediocre minorities with an advantage? Mediocre white men have been getting a leg up since the beginning of time. A handful of mediocre minorities get helped, and this is suddenly a travesty which can't stand?

And why would DEI be a blow to talented minorities? Do you think they were getting the credit they deserved before DEI? If your point is that DEI gave racists an excuse for not properly giving credit to minorities, sure. But the value of their work and whether people choose to recognize it has not been impacted by DEI...

And to be clear, my opening two sentences are tongue in cheek. As DEI is not at all about helping one set of mediocre people over another set of mediocre people. DEI is about forcing people to face the unconscious biases at play when they make decisions. It's about ensuring that there is a diverse slate of people to choose from when you make a hire. It's about recognizing the value of diverse perspectives and avoiding group think.

DEI should never be about quotas. DEI done right is about leveling the playing field, making decisions based on capability not comfort/ familiarity, creating an environment where everybody feels valued equally based on the value of the work they produce. Why would you not want that?
 
For goodness sake. Can’t we understand that these idiots have fabricated a false definition of DEI? DEI does not mean Affirmative Action.
 
Why is it that it offends you when it's mediocre minorities with an advantage? Mediocre white men have been getting a leg up since the beginning of time. A handful of mediocre minorities get helped, and this is suddenly a travesty which can't stand?

And why would DEI be a blow to talented minorities? Do you think they were getting the credit they deserved before DEI? If your point is that DEI gave racists an excuse for not properly giving credit to minorities, sure. But the value of their work and whether people choose to recognize it has not been impacted by DEI...

And to be clear, my opening two sentences are tongue in cheek. As DEI is not at all about helping one set of mediocre people over another set of mediocre people. DEI is about forcing people to face the unconscious biases at play when they make decisions. It's about ensuring that there is a diverse slate of people to choose from when you make a hire. It's about recognizing the value of diverse perspectives and avoiding group think.

DEI should never be about quotas. DEI done right is about leveling the playing field, making decisions based on capability not comfort/ familiarity, creating an environment where everybody feels valued equally based on the value of the work they produce. Why would you not want that?
I take offense to one group being favored over another solely because of their race in jobs or admission to University and a few other things. I don't think it particularly serves the interests of the majority race or the minority race in america. It just divides people.

The reason I think it doesn't favor very talented minorities is that there are plenty of people that would feel like they got to certain positions because of their race as opposed to their talent. That is not fair to them and that is not right.

I agree that in a perfect world, DEI would be about leveling the playing field but we've seen many examples when that has not been the case. The article points out three industries but in my life in corporate America it can be pretty overt as well. We got those directives handed down to us about hiring a minority for jobs and people's bonuses and promotions would ride on that.
 
For goodness sake. Can’t we understand that these idiots have fabricated a false definition of DEI? DEI does not mean Affirmative Action.
How do you respond to the examples in the article? Seems fairly well researched with some pretty glaring concrete examples. It appears that the way some DEI initiatives have been implemented are very much affirmative action.
 
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For goodness sake. Can’t we understand that these idiots have fabricated a false definition of DEI? DEI does not mean Affirmative Action.
True but it's so easy to pick at the gaping holes in the argument they make that you lose focus on the real point. That raises an interesting point. Would a strategy of distractive incompetence be Machiavellian or Munchasenian?
 
I take offense to one group being favored over another solely because of their race in jobs or admission to University and a few other things. I don't think it particularly serves the interests of the majority race or the minority race in america. It just divides people.

The reason I think it doesn't favor very talented minorities is that there are plenty of people that would feel like they got to certain positions because of their race as opposed to their talent. That is not fair to them and that is not right.

I agree that in a perfect world, DEI would be about leveling the playing field but we've seen many examples when that has not been the case. The article points out three industries but in my life in corporate America it can be pretty overt as well. We got those directives handed down to us about hiring a minority for jobs and people's bonuses and promotions would ride on that.
So do you take offense that in state white applicants are favored over out of state minority applicants who apply for colleges such as UNC ?
Do you take offense that mediocre white legacy applicants from big donor families are favored over more qualified minority applicants for colleges such as Duke ?
 
So do you take offense that in state white applicants are favored over out of state minority applicants who apply for colleges such as UNC ?
Do you take offense that mediocre white legacy applicants from big donor families are favored over more qualified minority applicants for colleges such as Duke ?
I don't take offense that in-state applicants are favored over out of state applicants. If it turns out they are favored because they are white, I would take offense to that.

I do take offense that legacy applicants and big donor applicants are favored over any candidates regardless of race. I'd like to end it.
 
For goodness sake. Can’t we understand that these idiots have fabricated a false definition of DEI? DEI does not mean Affirmative Action.
Did you read the article? Yes, plenty of right-wingers have completely distorted what DEI means. But the author recounts an experience in which the DEI functioned in pretty much the same way. Whether or not he's actually right in a larger sense is unclear -- he certainly didn't prove that case if he was making it. I would be skeptical, for sure. But that doesn't negate his own experience, which matters.

If we can't resolve it, we can at least acknowledge it. Every policy has winners and losers. Slavery was the ultimate "white people win; black people lose" policy. Jim Crow and segregation had that same binary, though the effect was weaker (but still really strong!). Subtle workplace discrimination is closer to balance than those two forms (note: I am choosing extreme examples for illustration), but still favors white people.

DEI is a flip of the script on the subtle forms. It's the idea that, if we're going to err, let's do so on the side of inclusion. How about extending the benefit of the doubt to minorities for the first time in centuries. I mean, this is only a first-order approximation and I'm not going to defend it as any precise description, but I think you could do a lot worse for a single sentence.

And that is perhaps a salutary development. In my view, its dominant property is its limited applicability. In most cases, it doesn't make a difference.

But when there are cases in which it does make a difference, we ought to be honest about that. We ought to be able to accept that DEI has some losers to it. That doesn't mean it should be ended any more than free trade should be ended because it closed the textile mills. It does seem wrong to me, though, to scoff at the losers' experience. When we say that DEI only hurts mediocre white men -- well, what does that prove, exactly? Mediocrity is a universal human condition that has existed in all societies at all times -- indeed, it's definitional. You can't have a great basketball player unless there are a bunch of mediocre ones. And so the mediocre matter too.

One thing that has happened, perhaps at the margins of MAGA, is that the mediocre have decided that liberals don't give a shit about them. Which isn't true, in my view -- in fact, liberals are way better about caring about people in general, of all stripes, than fascists. But the language and the attitudes can give that impression. And when you glom that onto the traditional in-group/out-group set of biases, amplified by social media, you get the monstrous exaggerated forms like Trump.

I'm not going to be holier than thou -- I'm sure I have used that rhetoric before. I surely contributed to the problem. I'm trying to do better, to live up to a pretty good mantra: have empathy for everyone -- the folk version of which is close to "don't judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes."
 
How do you respond to the examples in the article? Seems fairly well researched with some pretty glaring concrete examples. It appears that the way some DEI initiatives have been implemented are very much affirmative action.
No, they are experienced like affirmative action. As I noted early on, the problem comes from simultaneity. DEI is putting a small thumb on the scale. Or maybe removing a thumb that was there. That's just perspective. It's only when all the thumbs are being put on at once that it creates the experience of affirmative action to some people on the other side.
 
I don't take offense that in-state applicants are favored over out of state applicants. If it turns out they are favored because they are white, I would take offense to that.

I do take offense that legacy applicants and big donor applicants are favored over any candidates regardless of race. I'd like to end it.
More than twice as many out of state applicants apply to UNC as do instate students. Should more qualified out of state applicants be denied acceptance in order to protect admissions for less qualified instate applicants ?
 
You should at least read the article.

Here's the rub: we've always known this would happen. There's no such thing as a policy that helps everyone in every way. There are winners and losers. The fact that there are losers doesn't make the policy wrong, but we do an injustice if we can't even hear the losers out.

For instance, free trade has long been great for the US, but NAFTA and then China-> WTO did have an effect on some portions of the labor market. There were workers displaced by trade. Treating them as if they don't matter is wrong.

Diversifying is always going to create winners and losers. Now, you can say maybe that it actually just sorts winners from losers more effectively than before, but there still are people harmed by the policy. "Mediocre white men" still matter, and if we act as though they don't, then it gives MAGA a legitimacy it should not have.

Is it better that the winners and losers be spread out racially, instead of being concentrated among minorities? That's actually a tricky question, but let's say you answer in the affirmative (a perfectly reasonable response, though not the only one). Still, that doesn't change the experience of those white men who are now losing. We shouldn't be hard-hearted toward them.

I think the piece calls for more empathy, and in that I agree completely.
Your point is valid, that this is one of the core sources of angst that MAGA has tapped into. And I get that mocking and ridiculing people for being upset they missed the boat on white privilege won't help. I'm not suggesting Dems run on a platform of "suck it up, buttercup."

The real issue here is not DEI. I's the systematic death squeeze being put on the middle class. The democrats focus on the poor, the Pubs slob the knobs of the rich. But neither party does anything more than lip service for the middle class. The middle class has been shrinking for decades. MAGA is convincing white America that it's foreigners and minorities stealing their jobs... but in truth it's a long-term structural issue where people are fighting for their slice of an ever-shrinking pie.
 
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