Coding, Data Science, A.I. catch-All

  • Thread starter Thread starter nycfan
  • Start date Start date
  • Replies: 177
  • Views: 5K
  • Off-Topic 
Kind of a counterweight to Amodei’s gloomy scenarios, ☝🏼, a really thoughtful piece by a guy who is also super close to what’s happening:

That is interesting, and the comments are interesting too. But the result sounds gloomy even if it happens in 2040 instead of this decade.

Lots of this stuff is over my head, like his comment "After 2030, AI progress has to mostly come from algorithmic progress." I think he's saying that our computational power is so amazing now that if we don't have AGI now, we never will without algorithmic progress, but i'd think algorithmic process is a certainty. There was a time before Retrieval Augmented Generation (RAG) was a thing, and LLMs had just very specific pools of knowledge to dip into, but RAG opened up some gates. I don't see why more novel concepts to chain all these things together, or improve ways of chaining won't easily come out of the woodwork in terms of design.

I saw "The Thinking Game" - documentary about DeepMind, a bit of a bio about their CEO, and the way they move from training against rules-based games (pong, then checkers, then Go) to training about make-believe environments (the way baby humans have to learn from a novel world) was fascinating, and the outcome was an AI that can be competitive in games with loose rules like Starcraft.

 
Last edited:
What should I encourage my 2-year-old to focus on academically? I don't think white collar jobs will exist in 25 years.
1. I know this is a hard projection to make, but I'd say it depends considerably on what you think his or her intelligence level will be in 20 years.

When my eldest son was 3, I started teaching him math and science. In particular, we enjoyed a great game called Crazy Machines 2, which was almost a primer for engineering design. But I was anticipating that he would be brilliant because he has good genes for intelligence and already he was showing precociousness at that age. Well, he developed. He's not gotten a grade lower than a 4.0 in his life, and that has continued at U of M this year. He will be studying computer engineering with a minor or double major in physics, with an eye to quantum computing.

Well, not everyone can do quantum mechanics, or get a straight 4.0. For instance, one of my twins struggles with math. He's the only person in my extended family who isn't good at math; it's probably his autism. What he loves is voice acting -- he's really scary good at impersonations for being 10 years old (he can do a killer Bane, which is a fucking hard accent to do). He also wants to be an author. So will college be worth it for him? I'm not sure, and I'm not sure what he would study. I suspect voice acting jobs (and acting jobs in general) will be relatively resilient to AI, so that's good, but I don't have a clear sense of how you get to that career. It's not my experience.

2. What I would do with a 2 year old is start the kid on math and science at a very young age, the most that they can handle. You'd be surprised what a little kid can do if you set high expectations and offer support. Well, that's my experience, though as noted my eldest son is unusually gifted. Still, get a game like Turing Complete, or Space Chem, or one of any number of factory building games, and play the game with the kid. Those are too advanced for a 2 year old or even a 4 year old, but can a 5 year old learn digital logic? I think so.

Kids' brains are especially plastic at a young age. If you start teaching them math and science, it wires their brain to make those concepts completely intuitive. I taught my son Bayesian Probability when he was four, and it's now the easiest thing in the world for him.

3. And keep in mind the competition. A Yale Law professor tells a story of going on a hike with his eight year old daughter. He asked her how many hikes have they gone on. She initially said two, but revised to 1 with a standard deviation of about one and a half. Age 8. That's your kids' competition, and I worry that increasingly the economy is going to be winner take all. The world will become divided between those who make the robots, and those who work for the robots, and I know which side of that coin I'd like to be on. Unfortunately, not everyone will be able to do that.

Biggest point, I think: you need to be involved in your kids' education. If you look at the bios of a lot of the big tech players, you'll often see a professor. That makes sense: professors both a) have a lot of time on their hands and b) are good at teaching (and are quite smart). They start molding their kids at an early age. Sometimes they should pay more attention to ethics than they do (e.g. Sam Bankman-Friend), but anyway -- again, that's the competition. If you aren't a professor it might be harder for you, but if you want your kid to succeed, it's important to start being involved now. Like really involved.

If all of this intimidates you . . . well, it intimidates most people. I don't make the rules; I just play the game.

Note also that college admissions are crazy. My son, the valedictorian with a 4.0 GPA and 5s on every AP exam he took (6 exams; 5 courses) and who got As in the math classes he was taking at the local university as a senior, was accepted to University of Michigan and nowhere else but safety schools. Got wait listed at Carnegie Mellon and Cornell. CORNELL! That used to be a safety school. Got flat rejected at MIT and Princeton. His SAT scores were not the best but they were 1560 or so, which is about median for MIT.

In other words, better get cranking on college application stuff starting in middle school, if not earlier. Planning for college is a decades long job now.
 
Boomers are really the luckiest generation to have ever lived. They grew up in the postwar Pax-Americana, were able to go to college for basically nothing, buy a house for basically nothing (which appreciated tremendously), restructure the tax code to benefit them, and now they're going to reap the capital gains AI is sure to bestow without having to worry about the employment ramifications. Oh, and they will also check out before the bill for the climate catastrophe and national debt they neglected comes due.
 
And the rate of change is going to be the doozy. Manufacturing left the piedmont over a period of time and that hurt, but the state of NC has mostly done okay, but can you imagine if if banking or something left Charlotte over a period of just a few years.
A couple of former executives for one of Musk's enterprises has set up an AI school near the SpaceX complex in Texas. There are no human teachers at the school - the students are taught solely by AI programs. The teachers are called "facilitators" and their only function is to monitor the programs and classrooms and encourage the students, otherwise they do nothing a teacher traditionally does - no lesson plans, grading, teaching, nada. The 2 executives have openly said that AI teaching programs are already superior to human teachers and that human teachers are basically obsolete. I'm not so sure I want to live in a world where most jobs are going to be taken over by AI and humans are left to do - what? Monitor the machines? People think things are bad now under Trump (and they are), but just imagine what will happen if AI begins to rapidly displace most workers. It's going to get very ugly in many ways, very quickly.
 
Boomers are really the luckiest generation to have ever lived. They grew up in the postwar Pax-Americana, were able to go to college for basically nothing, buy a house for basically nothing (which appreciated tremendously), restructure the tax code to benefit them, and now they're going to reap the capital gains AI is sure to bestow without having to worry about the employment ramifications. Oh, and they will also check out before the bill for the climate catastrophe and national debt they neglected comes due.
At least they’re not going to leave behind a large national debt and failing social security apparatus.
 
And where else are all those displaced white-collar workers going to get jobs that pay an equivalent amount of money?
Ideally we will evolve into a post-labor, post-capital society and economy. People's entire identity will no longer be "worker" regardless of what type of job they had. Better yet, the idea of "worker" won't even enter their minds when pondering their own identity. I think that would be great although I doubt I'll live to see it...
 
Ideally we will evolve into a post-labor, post-capital society and economy. People's entire identity will no longer be "worker" regardless of what type of job they had. Better yet, the idea of "worker" won't even enter their minds when pondering their own identity. I think that would be great although I doubt I'll live to see it...
I agree that would be ideal, but given the current state of our society it's going to be a long, long time before something like that happens. I've seen some people mention that we'll have to go to some kind of basic universal income, but right now Republicans are trying vigorously to abolish what little social safety net we already have, and I don't see them or our plutocratic bosses ever agreeing to such a concept. We've lived in a society all our lives in which tens of millions of people (perhaps a majority) believe that if you're poor or jobless it's just because you're lazy or you "earned" your poverty, and no one else owes you anything. It's far more likely that we'll simply experience riots and violence all over the globe than adopt some kind of Star Trek ideal. Again, this is assuming that AI takes hold the way many think it will and does replace a very large number (perhaps a majority) of people's jobs and careers. Given human history, and especially what we're seeing now with Trumpism, I'm much more inclined to pessimism and cynicism than optimism regarding our future for the next few decades.
 
I’m not sure lacking something you have to do, for at least 25 hrs/wk would be a positive environment for most people, particularly those in the 18-30 range.
Maybe our AI overlords will require that we run on a treadmill or ride an exercise bike for a couple hours each morning and evening. Keep humanity fit and moderately busy while generating electricity to feed the monsters we’ve made.
 
And where else are all those displaced white-collar workers going to get jobs that pay an equivalent amount of money? We've already seen what automation has done to manufacturing jobs, what happens when large numbers of white collar and service industry jobs also disappear? Not a pleasant thought.
I am 53 but need to at least double (probably more) my 401k before I could consider retiring.

My hope is that I am close enough that the economic boom from increased productivity due to AI will increase my net worth enough to be able to retire. I sort of feel like it is a race. If I lose I could easily live my last decade in poverty. If I win I might be fine (though at that point things just become very unpredictable).

I figured I can still do some manual labor if I need to. It wouldn't pay what I make but it would suppliment.

I honestly think that if worse comes to worse, the government will have to remove the 10% penalty from early withdrawals.

My son isn't going to be able to have a job either way so I am not concerned about that for him.
 
I am guy that tries hard to avoid automated self serve check outs at stores. Cause it crushes the damn minimum wage jobs the checkout folks have.......
Interesting. I kind of view it the opposite. I choose self service because I don't want to make the checkout person do more work. You are definitely taking a bigger picture approach to it.

This reminds me of something my dad did about 20 years ago. We stopped at McDonalds for breakfast. When done he threw the bag of trash into the parking lot. I couldn't believe my eyes and after I got out and took the trash to the trash can, I told him this isn't the 1970's. People don't just throw trash on the ground anymore. He said, "I am providing someone a job." That is clearly not the same thing. SMH
 
Something related to energy (engineering) or Computer Science I guess, or some type of mechanical engineer? It is going to take massive energy to keep all these things running. Then some software/devOps folks MAY still be needed to cobble together the pieces or approve the AI-generated cobbling. Then mechanical engineer to assist the robots as they replace the mechanical parts at the data centers which are doing the white-collar processing when they wear down?
If we get near AGI, the robots will build and maintain the robots. At that point the only jobs that will remain are those where human interaction is important
 
Anyone watch the movie Mountainhead? It touches on some of these issues. I didn't really like the direction the story took about half way through but it was at least thought provoking.
 
That is interesting, and the comments are interesting too. But the result sounds gloomy even if it happens in 2040 instead of this decade.

Lots of this stuff is over my head, like his comment "After 2030, AI progress has to mostly come from algorithmic progress." I think he's saying that our computational power is so amazing now that if we don't have AGI now, we never will without algorithmic progress, but i'd think algorithmic process is a certainty. There was a time before Retrieval Augmented Generation (RAG) was a thing, and LLMs had just very specific pools of knowledge to dip into, but RAG opened up some gates. I don't see why more novel concepts to chain all these things together, or improve ways of chaining won't easily come out of the woodwork in terms of design.

I saw "The Thinking Game" - documentary about DeepMind, a bit of a bio about their CEO, and the way they move from training against rules-based games (pong, then checkers, then Go) to training about make-believe environments (the way baby humans have to learn from a novel world) was fascinating, and the outcome was an AI that can be competitive in games with loose rules like Starcraft.

I think he also means that we can’t just keep throwing compute at it because the energy supply won’t scale to it.

I think there’s a growing recognition that truly transformative day-to-day business use cases are not falling out of the sky and jacking enterprise productivity. And if that doesn’t get unlocked then large scale job loss can’t happen.
 
My son isn't going to be able to have a job either way so I am not concerned about that for him.
Maybe one day we'll have great AI agents that could be fine-tuned personal therapists for folks having trouble due to autism and any accompanying feelings, behaviors, disorders. Some AI are already becoming great personal teachers due to them being able to get personalized feedback to morph their personalized didactic approach and material. I mentioned the DeepMind "training" in novel worlds, and if you could create a world in which sensory perceptions were randomly overstimulated in some cases and understimulated in others, where humans had trouble with emotional regulation, where humans were easily distracted, where expressive and receptive lang were a challenge, where visuals are more powerful than vocal instructions... if that AI could learn to navigate that world AND learn theraputic skills you could have a pretty nice counselor if you could afford the compute power. I'm sure this is what Kennedy is working on.
 
I work in a mid-career position in finance (fairly specialized) and I could absolutely see my job completely replaced by AI in 10 years, assuming incremental improvements. I believe this will ultimately lead to UBI, but how does that work in practice? Does the 45-year-old displaced attorney with a $5K mortgage receive enough benefits to service his debt? What should I encourage my 2-year-old to focus on academically? I don't think white collar jobs will exist in 25 years.
Train him/her to be John Connor.

The machines will go after us at some point.
 
Train him/her to be John Connor.

The machines will go after us at some point.

Why wouldn’t they? Humans are basically self-centered and short-sighted, and we are on a path to destroy the planet. Any machine using basic logic would figure that out and try to limit our impact by whatever means possible. We have had the luxury of being an apex predator for about 300,000 years. Not sure how much longer our luck is going to last.
 
Back
Top