"Cont....a White Homeland"--"They Don’t Want to Live in Lincoln’s America"

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Even in colonial times Central Americans -- Guatemalans, Hondurans, Salvadorans, Costa Ricans in particular (going back that far you could even throw in folks from Chiapas, Mexico) there have been sufficient regional and even local differences to foster animosities. Ever wonder why there isn't a nation called Central America? They tried with the United Provinces of Central America and it just didn't hold together. Demographically AND Geographically the nations are different enough to breed both mild as well as vociferous disagreements.

From the north, Mexicans, at least above Chiapas, have also tended to laud a good deal, from the nationalism born of a successful ealy 20th century revolution that created from a despotic dictatorship a modern nation state to a simple and general "WE ARE A GIGANTIC COUNTRY COMPARED TO YOU" line of thinking.
 
Ok. Not gonna respond to the rest of it huh?
Your points are pretty muddled but I'll try my best. Once again, its a nativist speech much more than a white nationalist speech. So yes, portions of that speech were directed at native born Americans of any skin shade.

I'm guessing he didn't discuss other accomplishments because they weren't at the same level. Do you really want him to say it was an American that invented the telephone and an American that invented elevator brakes? It was an American that was the first to fly solo across the Atlantic and a different American who scored the most points in an NBA career? It was an American who split the atom and an American who invented peanut butter.? And I'm not saying those weren't incredible accomplishments that none of us have approached but if you are listing the 5-10 greatest American achievements to illustrate how great we are, we are still waiting for the POC's entry which will come at some point.

I am happy to acknowledge that a speech like that could appeal to racists. Can you acknowledge that it could also appeal to non-racists who either don't like immigrants or just don't want to hear how bad America has been all the time?
 
Your points are pretty muddled but I'll try my best. Once again, its a nativist speech much more than a white nationalist speech. So yes, portions of that speech were directed at native born Americans of any skin shade.

I'm guessing he didn't discuss other accomplishments because they weren't at the same level. Do you really want him to say it was an American that invented the telephone and an American that invented elevator brakes? It was an American that was the first to fly solo across the Atlantic and a different American who scored the most points in an NBA career? It was an American who split the atom and an American who invented peanut butter.? And I'm not saying those weren't incredible accomplishments that none of us have approached but if you are listing the 5-10 greatest American achievements to illustrate how great we are, we are still waiting for the POC's entry which will come at some point.

I am happy to acknowledge that a speech like that could appeal to racists. Can you acknowledge that it could also appeal to non-racists who either don't like immigrants or just don't want to hear how bad America has been all the time?
What I'm asking you is if the speech was intended to be about and appeal to native-born Americans of all races and religions, why the speech had to reference "European Christians" and their descendants multiple times without making specific reference to any other ethnic group or religion? Consider the line of the speech that even you have acknowledged is pretty problematic:

We Americans are the sons and daughters of the Christian pilgrims that poured out from Europe’s shores to baptize a new world in their ancient faith

That line could have easily been:

We Americans are the sons and daughters of the pilgrims who crossed oceans to tame a new world with their faith, courage, and indomitable spirit

That change would make the speech far more inclusive of non-white, non-Christian nativists, but it would make it a lot less white nationalist and/or Christian nationalist. Again, you can pretend if you want that it's just a coincidence that the speech said the former and not the latter; but I'm fairly confident it's not.

I agree that there are parts of the speech that would appeal to the handful of hypothetical people you are referencing who are solely nativist but could not be fairly described as white nationalists, or racists, or whatever. But if the speech was truly meant to appeal to nativists of all races and religions it would and could have been drafted that way. It could have easily referenced "the descendants of slaves who shook off their chains and went to work building the American dream alongside their fellow countrymen" or "the people of all faiths and backgrounds who were drawn by this uniquely American spirit to tame the frontier" but it didn't do those things. Because the entire point of the speech is to hail America as the pinnacle of all civilization and to give responsibility for building that civilization solely to European Christians. That's why they are explicitly mentioned, and no one else is.
 
What I'm asking you is if the speech was intended to be about and appeal to native-born Americans of all races and religions, why the speech had to reference "European Christians" and their descendants multiple times without making specific reference to any other ethnic group or religion? Consider the line of the speech that even you have acknowledged is pretty problematic:

We Americans are the sons and daughters of the Christian pilgrims that poured out from Europe’s shores to baptize a new world in their ancient faith

That line could have easily been:

We Americans are the sons and daughters of the pilgrims who crossed oceans to tame a new world with their faith, courage, and indomitable spirit

That change would make the speech far more inclusive of non-white, non-Christian nativists, but it would make it a lot less white nationalist and/or Christian nationalist. Again, you can pretend if you want that it's just a coincidence that the speech said the former and not the latter; but I'm fairly confident it's not.

I agree that there are parts of the speech that would appeal to the handful of hypothetical people you are referencing who are solely nativist but could not be fairly described as white nationalists, or racists, or whatever. But if the speech was truly meant to appeal to nativists of all races and religions it would and could have been drafted that way. It could have easily referenced "the descendants of slaves who shook off their chains and went to work building the American dream alongside their fellow countrymen" or "the people of all faiths and backgrounds who were drawn by this uniquely American spirit to tame the frontier" but it didn't do those things. Because the entire point of the speech is to hail America as the pinnacle of all civilization and to give responsibility for building that civilization solely to European Christians. That's why they are explicitly mentioned, and no one else is.
I think I have mentioned twice that the European line is the most problematic of the speech. It is one line. You guys complain about how I nitpick while ignoring the whole. I'm not clear if you are the pot or the kettle.
 
There is indeed a good deal of historical animosities streaming back and forth between Central Americans and Mexicans...AND between Central Americans for that matter as well as between different demographic groups within each country. Regionalism plays a role but so too does ethnicity, even linguistics.

All of that said, @rodoheel destroyed it above. It appears that @gtyellowjacket is being deliberately obtuse in his defense of Schmitt's remarks. It is kind of a waste of time but just the same a good reminder of the games that Rightists play.
Deliberately obtuse is his byline
 
I think I have mentioned twice that the European line is the most problematic of the speech. It is one line. You guys complain about how I nitpick while ignoring the whole. I'm not clear if you are the pot or the kettle.
That is one line in the speech - but it's not the only mention of Europe of Christians, and there are numerous mentions to "Western civilization" or "the West" which are meant to evoke the same thing.

But anyway, feel free to continue along your merry blissful way where those mentions of European Christians are just a big coincidence and have nothing to do with the point of the speech as a whole.
 
That is one line in the speech - but it's not the only mention of Europe of Christians, and there are numerous mentions to "Western civilization" or "the West" which are meant to evoke the same thing.

But anyway, feel free to continue along your merry blissful way where those mentions of European Christians are just a big coincidence and have nothing to do with the point of the speech as a whole.
I really disagree. I think the West in his speech is inclusive of all native born Americans no matter the color. Are you now claiming that only white Americans should be considered part of western civilization? Your arguments are a little all over the place.
 
I really disagree. I think the West in his speech is inclusive of all native born Americans no matter the color. Are you now claiming that only white Americans should be considered part of western civilization? Your arguments are a little all over the place.
This is so obviously not what I am saying that I can only assume you're trolling at this point
 
Huh? Rodo is not saying that. Schmitt is.
Plenty of American people of color in that crowd. I would wager that if you ask them if they thought they were part of western civilization, they would look at you like you're an idiot and then say yes of course. I would assume it would be the same for just about any American, even the ones not in that crowd.
 
Schmitt won his most recent election 55-42. He can pretty much say anything he wants to, no matter how reprehensible or bigoted it is, because he's not gonna get voted out.
 
Plenty of American people of color in that crowd. I would wager that if you ask them if they thought they were part of western civilization, they would look at you like you're an idiot and then say yes of course. I would assume it would be the same for just about any American, even the ones not in that crowd.
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They Don’t Want to Live in Lincoln’s America

Sept. 10, 2025

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Listen to this article · 10:10 min Learn more



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By Jamelle Bouie

Opinion Columnist

Although it has long since entered the pantheon of American rhetoric as one of our nation’s great orations, there was a time, however brief, when the Gettysburg Address had its critics.

The president’s words, an unnamed editorialist for The Chicago Times wrote, were “a perversion of history so flagrant that the most extended charity cannot regard it as otherwise than willful.” The Gettysburg Address is famously succinct, less a speech — that honor went to the accomplished orator Edward Everett, whose two-hour disquisition was the main event — than a short set of remarks meant simply to commemorate the occasion.

What, then, was offensive to this irate commentator? The problem, he explained, was the premise.

“Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth upon this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal,” President Abraham Lincoln said. This, the editorialist wrote, was nonsense. Does the Constitution, he asked, quoting those parts that allude to slavery, “dedicate the nation ‘to the proposition that all men are created equal?’” No, he said, and moreover, “Mr. Lincoln occupies his present position by virtue of this Constitution, and is sworn to the maintenance and enforcement of these provisions.”

Far from dying to consecrate a new birth of freedom, he wrote, “It was to uphold this Constitution, and the Union created by it, that our soldiers gave their lives at Gettysburg.” Lincoln was wrong — very wrong. “How dared he, then, standing on their graves, misstate the cause for which they died, and libel the statesmen who founded the government? They were men possessing too much self-respect to declare that Negroes were their equals, or were entitled to equal privileges.”





Lincoln imagined a nation dedicated to the principles of the Declaration of Independence and the aims of the founders as he understood them. His critics, from Stephen Douglas to Roger Taney to the leaders of the Confederate rebellion, said no — ours was not a society of equals but one of rigid, permanent hierarchies. Ultimately, this contest of national identity was settled by force of arms. Lincoln’s vision, backed by what was, at the time, one of the largest and most diverse armies ever assembled on the North American continent, won the day. And his allies, charged after his martyrdom with the great work of reconstruction, wrote this vision into the Constitution with three amendments that aimed to realize the fullness of the Declaration.

To a great extent, then, we live in Lincoln’s America as much as anyone else’s. Which makes it supremely ironic that the project of Lincoln’s partisan political descendants — the project of the modern Republican Party — is the destruction of his republic of equals in favor of a so-called homeland for a select few.





Vice President JD Vance is, as I discussed previously, a leading light of this effort. But he is not the only Republican to carry the standard. Last week, at an annual conference for national conservatism — the illiberal right’s term of choice for its movement — Senator Eric Schmitt of Missouri gave a speech that, in its rejection of the creedal vision of the American republic and in its embrace of an exclusionary racial nationalism, went even further than Vance has in his public statements.

“For decades, the mainstream consensus on the left and the right alike seemed to be that America itself was just an ‘idea’ — a vehicle for global liberalism,” Schmitt said. “We were told that the entire meaning of America boiled down to a few lines in a poem on the Statue of Liberty and five words about equality in the Declaration of Independence. Any other aspect of American identity was deemed to be illegitimate and immoral, poisoned by the evils of our ancestors.”





We should pause, here, to reflect on the radicalism of Schmitt’s dismissive contempt for the universalist aspirations of the American political tradition. Those “five words about equality” — “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal” — are among the most important in human history. They represent a unique moment in the story of the world, the merging of a powerful notion of universal equality with a revolutionary claim about the sources of political authority.

“For the Declaration of Independence was the first case in human history in which a single people made a national revolution on the assumption that its particular principles were, simultaneously, the universal principles which civilized men everywhere would recognize,” the historian and political philosopher Harry Jaffa wrote in what now reads as a rebuke of those who, in the present day, carry the imprimatur of his scholarly home, the Claremont Institute. “The declaration assumed,” he went on to say, “that its potential, if not its actual addresses, embraced the entire family of man.”

Put a little differently, there is a reason that those five words have been, since the day they were announced to the people of the United States, a clarion call for freedom both here and around the world. The Declaration’s promise of equality would become, in short order, a powerful touchstone for the great moral and political crusades of our nation’s history.



“We hold these truths to be self-evident,” declared the women at the Seneca Falls Convention of 1848, “that all men and women are created equal.”
 
“The Declaration of Independence is the ringbolt to the chain of your nation’s destiny,” thundered Frederick Douglass in 1852. “The principles contained in that instrument are saving principles.”

“The Declaration of Independence,” Eugene Debs wrote in 1894, “recited the cause of the great strike for liberty.”

“Never before in the history of the world has a sociopolitical document expressed in such profound, eloquent and unequivocal language the dignity and the worth of human personality,” the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. said of the Declaration to congregants at his Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta in 1965. “The American dream reminds us, and we should think about it anew on this Independence Day, that every man is an heir of the legacy of dignity and worth.”

Schmitt rejects this inheritance. His America is not an idea; it is blood and soil, “a nation and a people, with its own distinct history and heritage and interests.”





Any casual reader of American history will see the issue here: Of course the United States has a distinct history, and it is a history of immigration, migration and the amalgamation of many cultures and traditions into something wholly different from its constituent parts. The American heritage, in other words, is that of a Creole nation, a conglomeration of Native, European, African and Asian histories and influences — a mélange found in almost everything we produce. “American culture, even in its most rigidly segregated precincts, is patently and irrevocably composite,” wrote the novelist and social critic Albert Murray. “It is, regardless of all the hysterical protestations of those who would have it otherwise, incontestably mulatto.”

What is true for our culture and identity is also true for our interests, which are those of a fundamentally cosmopolitan nation, shaped at each stage by the movements of people from around the world. Schmitt, however, has a different idea of who we are:



“We Americans are the sons and daughters of the Christian pilgrims that poured out from Europe’s shores to baptize a new world in their ancient faith. Our ancestors were driven here by destiny, possessed by urgent and fiery conviction, by burning belief, devoted to their cause and their God.”



This claim comes after Schmitt identifies “Americans” with “the pioneers striking out from Missouri for the wild and dangerous frontier” and the “outnumbered Kentucky settlers repelling wave after wave of Indian war band attacks from behind their stockade walls.”

Pilgrims, pioneers, settlers — Schmitt has a clear image of the American in mind, and it is exclusive of much of the country, including people who can trace their origins to the earliest days of British North America. And Schmitt’s Americans, he asserts, “believed they were forging a nation — a homeland for themselves and their descendants.” America, he says, “belongs to us. It is our birthright, our heritage, our destiny.” This “birthright,” however, is not the jus soli enshrined in the 14th Amendment but the jus sanguinis of the Dred Scott decision.

Schmitt, like Vance before him, presents this vision of the United States as a novel rebuke to liberal ideology. But truth be told, theirs is the stale orthodoxy of those blinkered devotees of human aristocracy, who reject the faith of the founders — and the work of those who made it real — to worship at the altar of hierarchy and repression.
 
You would have heard much the same if you were around for George Wallace’s 1963 Inaugural Address as governor of Alabama, in which he sang paeans to the “great Anglo-Saxon Southland” or if 40 years earlier you attended a lecture by Lothrop Stoddard, the author of “The Rising Tide of Color Against White World-Supremacy” and “The Revolt Against Civilization: The Menace of the Under-Man” or if 60 years before that you joined the pro-slavery ideologue George Fitzhugh for an evening in his study, where he would explain that “the Anglo-Saxons of America are the only people in the world fitted for freedom.”

Schmitt, like his fellow travelers past and present, wants nothing other than to turn the page on those “five words about equality.” Which is to say that both he and the president to whom he has pledged his allegiance want to turn the page on a nation dedicated to a “new birth of freedom.”

In the Gettysburg Address, Lincoln asked his audience to recommit itself to the “great task” — “the unfinished work” — of preserving a nation “conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.” It seems that Eric Schmitt, like many other national conservatives, believes that this work has already gone too far.
 
^ Brilliant. Thanks so much for posting that here, donbosco.

When you have time I would love to know any thoughts whatsoever that you have on this essay by Bouie. As we move toward Constitution Day (Wednesday) I'm engaged with the very issues juxtaposed here...

Here I contemplate the taking of Jefferson's "Five Words About Equality" (all men are created equal) and arguing that Lincoln in his recognition that the "proposition that all men are created equal" as echoed in the Gettysburg Address was needed, necessary even, for the continued life of the national experiment, rededication of the slaveowning Virginian's ironic but opening promise as the binding force of the republic, and that without that then our original conception in Liberty was stillborn and rather we were forever to be "a society of rigid, permanent hierarchies."
 
"Any casual reader of American history will see the issue here: Of course the United States has a distinct history, and it is a history of immigration, migration and the amalgamation of many cultures and traditions into something wholly different from its constituent parts. The American heritage, in other words, is that of a Creole nation, a conglomeration of Native, European, African and Asian histories and influences — a mélange found in almost everything we produce." ~ Jamelle Bouie

This, by Bouie, reprises this by Frederick Douglass from 1869. "“We shall … mold them all, each after his kind, into Americans; Indian and Celt; negro and Saxon; Latin and Teuton; Mongolian and Caucasian; Jew and Gentile; all shall here bow to the same law, speak the same language, support the same Government, enjoy the same liberty, vibrate with the same national enthusiasm, and seek the same national ends.” Our Composite Nation, by Frederick Douglass
 
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