"Cont....a White Homeland"--"They Don’t Want to Live in Lincoln’s America"

[donbosco]

Here I contemplate the taking of Jefferson's "Five Words About Equality" (all men are created equal) and arguing that Lincoln in his recognition that the "proposition that all men are created equal" as echoed in the Gettysburg Address was needed, necessary even, for the continued life of the national experiment, rededication of the slaveowning Virginian's ironic but opening promise as the binding force of the republic, and that without that then our original conception in Liberty was stillborn and rather we were forever to be "a society of rigid, permanent hierarchies."

Super Clumsy...help would be appreciated.

 

[Mundial]

"I think there are plenty of Mexican neighborhoods upset that their neighborhoods were transformed by those lazy central Americans. Which is one of the reason why you saw Trump winning a very large share of hispanics."

Speak with a lot of Hispanics GT?

The central american immigrants where I live are some of the hardest working people I have ever seen. Indeed, you rarely ever see a Hispanic panhandler in this area. These people would rather work themselves to death than beg.

I think that the reason Trump was able to win more of the Hispanic vote was more about religious and gender reasons than one group of Hispanics disliking another group. Catholicism really does weigh heavily with the Hispanic population and when Trump was indicating that he would strike down Roe and emphasis the church in US government, that had significant impact. I also think that many Hispanics (especially the newly arrived ones) still hold traditional views regarding men vs. women in leadership roles.

 

[lawtig02]

When you have time I would love to know any thoughts whatsoever that you have on this essay by Bouie. As we move toward Constitution Day (Wednesday) I'm engaged with the very issues juxtaposed here...

Here I contemplate the taking of Jefferson's "Five Words About Equality" (all men are created equal) and arguing that Lincoln in his recognition that the "proposition that all men are created equal" as echoed in the Gettysburg Address was needed, necessary even, for the continued life of the national experiment, rededication of the slaveowning Virginian's ironic but opening promise as the binding force of the republic, and that without that then our original conception in Liberty was stillborn and rather we were forever to be "a society of rigid, permanent hierarchies."

I'm no expert in this, but Bouie is talking about something that underlies the discussion several of us were having with Callatoroy yesterday. I am positive that if you polled Republicans, or even just MAGA, huge percentages would say they agree with the Declaration of Independence and Lincoln that America is, or should be, "dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal." But the rot at the core of MAGA, and hence the Republican Party, is driven by two realities.

First, a shocking number of MAGAs do NOT believe that the proposition that all men are created equal is essential to our national identity. The current executive branch is stocked full of those MAGAs, and a huge percentage of Republicans in Congress, including Schmitt, fall into that camp as well. This is not to absolve the rank and file Republicans, because they're directly responsible for those people being in positions of immense power. But the reality is that regardless of what Republicans say they believe, the Republican leadership in Congress, and in many states as well, is absolutely NOT dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal, and like Schmitt, they're increasingly willing to say that out loud.

Second, even the rank and file Republicans who say they believe in that proposition endorse policies that are inconsistent with it. What they appear to actually believe is that all native-born Americans are created equal, or maybe that all current American citizens are created equal, or maybe that all straight native-born Americans of European descent who have not committed a crime, do not have a mental illness, and who (legally) own guns are created equal. However they think about it, they clearly do not believe in Lincoln's proposition, because if they did, they would not support what Trump is doing in the areas of immigration, foreign policy, foreign aid, LGBTQ rights, etc., etc., etc.

If you truly believe that all people are created equal, I do not see how you can continue to vote for Republicans in this day and time. You CERTAINLY can't vote for MAGA. While some Republicans may say they disagree with what Schmitt said, by voting for Republicans, they're voting to subject all of their fellow, supposedly "equal", Americans and would-be Americans to policies that are utterly inconsistent with Lincoln and the Declaration of Independence.

 

[sringwal]

I'm no expert in this, but Bouie is talking about something that underlies the discussion several of us were having with Callatoroy yesterday. I am positive that if you polled Republicans, or even just MAGA, huge percentages would say they agree with the Declaration of Independence and Lincoln that America is, or should be, "dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal." But the rot at the core of MAGA, and hence the Republican Party, is driven by two realities.

First, a shocking number of MAGAs do NOT believe that the proposition that all men are created equal is essential to our national identity. The current executive branch is stocked full of those MAGAs, and a huge percentage of Republicans in Congress, including Schmitt, fall into that camp as well. This is not to absolve the rank and file Republicans, because they're directly responsible for those people being in positions of immense power. But the reality is that regardless of what Republicans say they believe, the Republican leadership in Congress, and in many states as well, is absolutely NOT dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal, and like Schmitt, they're increasingly willing to say that out loud.

Second, even the rank and file Republicans who say they believe in that proposition endorse policies that are inconsistent with it. What they appear to actually believe is that all native-born Americans are created equal, or maybe that all current American citizens are created equal, or maybe that all straight native-born Americans of European descent who have not committed a crime, do not have a mental illness, and who (legally) own guns are created equal. However they think about it, they clearly do not believe in Lincoln's proposition, because if they did, they would not support what Trump is doing in the areas of immigration, foreign policy, foreign aid, LGBTQ rights, etc., etc., etc.

If you truly believe that all people are created equal, I do not see how you can continue to vote for Republicans in this day and time. You CERTAINLY can't vote for MAGA. While some Republicans may say they disagree with what Schmitt said, by voting for Republicans, they're voting to subject all of their fellow, supposedly "equal", Americans and would-be Americans to policies that are utterly inconsistent with Lincoln and the Declaration of Independence.

Counterpoint: 3/5 compromise. I'm not sure that "All men (and women)" was ever inherent to the beliefs of many people in the country. This is something I wrestle with, although I believe more in the ideal than the reality of how that ideal has played out, in the past, in this country.

 

[lawtig02]

Counterpoint: 3/5 compromise. I'm not sure that "All men (and women)" was ever inherent to the beliefs of many people in the country. This is something I wrestle with, although I believe more in the ideal than the reality of how that ideal has played out, in the past, in this country.

Agree, but that was much of Bouie's point. Regardless of the language in the Declaration, our original Constitution unequivocally did NOT protect the equality of all people. That was a large part of the reason we ended up in a civil war 80 years later. Lincoln, during that war, reframed our nation's core principles to be centered more on the aspirational language of the Declaration than the obsolete language of the Constitution. And after Lincoln's side won, the Constitution itself was amended to incorporate more of Lincoln's vision of human equality. (More amendments and legislation were necessary, of course, and we still have a ways to go on some issues.)

The struggle now is between those of us (like most on this board) who think equality is a core American principle and who embrace the protections afforded by the constitutional amendments, civil rights legislation, etc., and those on the right, who have virtually unfettered power right now, who would prefer an America that looks more like 1781, where equality is not a primary American value. This group views America as being not for all people, but for "the sons and daughters of the Christian pilgrims that poured out from Europe’s shores to baptize a new world in their ancient faith."

 

[sringwal]

Fair point - and I am catching up on this thread by going backwards, which is never a wise time to jump in to the conversation.