CURRENT EVENTS

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Ramrouser said:
Georgia has six acceptable forms of ID for voting. If a voter does not have one of the six, then the State offers a FREE ID for voting purposes.
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All right. I'm not going to debate the merits of the Georgia law. A Free ID doesn't actually address all the issues, but let's leave that aside for now.

I'm more interested in the reasons why you feel strongly about this. Is it your opinion that there is widespread in-person voting fraud? If so, how does that work. What is the motivation for Jose Martinez to go to a polling place, say his name is Billy Bobbit and take Billy's vote? It's incredibly, incredibly risky, inefficient and ineffective and I can't understand why anyone thinks it goes on.

When I was in high school, I remember a proposal to get a big Xerox machine for student use. It was proposed to be put in the student lounge, but there were some folks concerned that the student lounge was not secure. I didn't think that was an issue, because it seemed to me that the chances of someone stealing the Xerox machine were incredibly low -- it would take multiple people to move it, even more to get it down the steps. You'd need a big truck. And you'd have to do it without making noise that would alert passers-by -- there are always passers-by, even in dead night.

Do you think we should have skipped the Xerox machine because of the possibility that it could have been stolen? There was no possibility of a dead bolt lock for reasons I can't remember, but I'm not sure the door even had a button lock. Do you think we could have protected the machine with a button lock? Would that have been successful or unsuccessful, useful or pointless?
 
superrific said:
Of course, this is not true, typical for you. See the Naturalization Act of 1790.

Don't you ever tire of humiliating yourself over and over and over again? It's OK to make a mistake, but when mistakes become your core identity, maybe you should rethink
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People were given citizenship before the Naturalization Act. The Naturalization act just created an official, federal process and guidelines.

Of course, things were considerably different then because, due to obvious physical limitations, there weren't millions of people illegally entering and staying in the US and being counted to determine federal representation.
 
ZenMode said:
People were given citizenship before the Naturalization Act. The Naturalization act just created an official, federal process and guidelines.
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It created the only process. Before the constitution, states could recognize citizenship because the federal government was weak. That's why the constitution was written and adopted.

So it is your theory that, in 1791, a person could show up in America and gain citizenship through some other process than provided for in the Naturalization Act? Even to ask the question is to answer it.

And it's also clear that the Framers thought a lot about citizenship. If they had wanted the census to have counted citizens, they would have said so.
 
Ramrouser said:
Georgia has six acceptable forms of ID for voting. If a voter does not have one of the six, then the State offers a FREE ID for voting purposes.
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I applaud states that make free ID available, particularly if they are genuine in their efforts to reduce the burden on voters. I do always wonder how free "free" is, though. The state may not charge, but that doesn't mean there is no cost to the citizen. Can you get one of these by mail? Do you have to travel to an office and, if so, is it open during non-business hours for people that work? Do you need any other documentation that might not be readily available like a birth certificate? Are the free IDs available same-day? Can you get one on election day?
 
superrific said:
All right. I'm not going to debate the merits of the Georgia law. A Free ID doesn't actually address all the issues, but let's leave that aside for now.

I'm more interested in the reasons why you feel strongly about this. Is it your opinion that there is widespread in-person voting fraud? If so, how does that work. What is the motivation for Jose Martinez to go to a polling place, say his name is Billy Bobbit and take Billy's vote? It's incredibly, incredibly risky, inefficient and ineffective and I can't understand why anyone thinks it goes on.

When I was in high school, I remember a proposal to get a big Xerox machine for student use. It was proposed to be put in the student lounge, but there were some folks concerned that the student lounge was not secure. I didn't think that was an issue, because it seemed to me that the chances of someone stealing the Xerox machine were incredibly low -- it would take multiple people to move it, even more to get it down the steps. You'd need a big truck. And you'd have to do it without making noise that would alert passers-by -- there are always passers-by, even in dead night.

Do you think we should have skipped the Xerox machine because of the possibility that it could have been stolen? There was no possibility of a dead bolt lock for reasons I can't remember, but I'm not sure the door even had a button lock. Do you think we could have protected the machine with a button lock? Would that have been successful or unsuccessful, useful or pointless?
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First, I see little to no burden in presenting an ID to vote in an election. We show ID for almost everything we do so why exempt voting? You can't enter a Federal Courthouse without presenting a valid ID and surrendering your phone.

Second, requiring ID adds confidence in voting in elections. You may dismiss the R's concerns in the voting in 2020 but the concerns were real and actually discouraged hundreds of thousands of citizens to not vote in the Senate run off the election in January 2021. Isn't the goal to encourage more, not less, people to vote? Georgia's new voting laws helped re establish confidence in voting in elections - the law has received almost universal praise in the State.

Third, deterrence. Requiring a valid ID will discourage any individuals or groups even thinking about committing voter fraud.

I'm not for making people jump through meaningless hoops just for the fun of it, but I don't think requiring an ID to vote falls into that category.
 
TangledUpInBlue06 said:
I applaud states that make free ID available, particularly if they are genuine in their efforts to reduce the burden on voters. I do always wonder how free "free" is, though. The state may not charge, but that doesn't mean there is no cost to the citizen. Can you get one of these by mail? Do you have to travel to an office and, if so, is it open during non-business hours for people that work? Do you need any other documentation that might not be readily available like a birth certificate? Are the free IDs available same-day? Can you get one on election day?
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According to the Georgia Secretary of State's office, a person may obtain the voting ID through any County Registrar's office or any Department of Driver Services. No birth certificate is required. All that is needed is documentation showing the name and address of the applicant - i.e. a utility bill. You can also obtain an ID by simply showing you were a previous voter and on the voting rolls.

Your remaining inquiries were not specifically addressed on the SOS's website. Obtaining the ID on election day would be useless since Georgia does not have election day registration. I can't imagine you wouldn't be able to obtain the ID the same day since that service is available for driver's licenses.
 
Callatoroy said:
An illegal immigrant wouldn't fit the definition of a free person.
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1. That's not true even as a matter of simple language.
2. Why are you still ignoring the 14th Amendment?
3. Your (and Trump's) position is also completely contrary to a number of Supreme Court decisions over the years that have resolved this question definitively.
 
superrific said:
I have no real issue with Lutnick except for his visibility. He's the commerce secretary. Eh. Vance and Vought aren't in the cabinet. Obviously the worst of the worst are Zeldin, Noem, Bondi, Hed, and RFK, in no particular order. Probably Gabbard as well.

You're of course correct that somehow America (not "us") have become numb to the shitfuckery of all of this. We should expect excellent cabinet members, not stock noir villains.
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Trump says they both are. Vought is explicitly included on the website, and while Vance is not, he's mentioned in the link copied below. Not sure what's up with that.

www.whitehouse.gov

The Cabinet

Established in Article II, Section 2 of the Constitution, the Cabinet’s role is to advise the President on any subject he may require relating to the duties of each member’s respective office. President Donald J. Trump’s Cabinet includes Vice President J.D. Vance and the heads of the 15...
www.whitehouse.gov www.whitehouse.gov
 
superrific said:
It created the only process. Before the constitution, states could recognize citizenship because the federal government was weak. That's why the constitution was written and adopted.
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Right, each state had their own process.
superrific said:
So it is your theory that, in 1791, a person could show up in America and gain citizenship through some other process than provided for in the Naturalization Act? Even to ask the question is to answer it.
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No. I'm saying before 1790, people could be granted citizenship by individual states.
superrific said:
And it's also clear that the Framers thought a lot about citizenship. If they had wanted the census to have counted citizens, they would have said so.
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I'm sure they did think about citizenship. They also don't have the ability to see into the future, so they didn't know what they didn't know. Among the things the didn't know is that it would be possible to get to the US from any country in the world in a matter of hours, which would allow pregnant women to land just in time to squeeze out a "citizen". They also couldn't have predicted that the US would be positioned next to a "third" world country whose citizens would be illegally, but easily, entering the country and being counted in our census....

.... stuff like that.
 
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heelinhell said:
I fear I may have hurt your feelings and for that I apologize. I don't believe you have sunk to ad hominem attacks in our discussions/debates before now. I have considered you a reasonable MAGA board poster , but it seems like you have unraveled a bit over the past couple of weeks.

According to the conservative RCP average of polls, Dems are favored over GQPers by 4% .

So let's get back to a rational discussion/debate regarding whether a majority of Americans support Democratic policies when it comes to the major issues.
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I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm raveled pretty tight right now. Have a friend visiting this weekend and bringing a bottle of pappy van winkle 15yr reserve that is likely to cause me to unravel though.
That poll doesn't mean anything to me. I would think you guys would have learned your lesson about polls. The left's policies on illegal immigration, the economy, Defense, DEI, education, and crime to me were the most important issues in the election. Election results are a better indicator than polls. I think you guys lose on all those issues.
 
Ramrouser said:
According to the Georgia Secretary of State's office, a person may obtain the voting ID through any County Registrar's office or any Department of Driver Services
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No mail option? From a quick look it appears these offices are open M-F 8am-5pm, so someone working normal hours might have to take time off of work. That would cost them money, along with travel to the office, even if the ID is free.
 
Callatoroy said:
I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm raveled pretty tight right now. Have a friend visiting this weekend and bringing a bottle of pappy van winkle 15yr reserve that is likely to cause me to unravel though.
That poll doesn't mean anything to me. I would think you guys would have learned your lesson about polls. The left's policies on illegal immigration, the economy, Defense, DEI, education, and crime to me were the most important issues in the election. Election results are a better indicator than polls. I think you guys lose on all those issues.
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I don't think you appreciate the extent to which Americans hold the party in power responsible for whatever they don't like. No doubt those issues (except maybe defense) were good for the GOP in 2024 when Biden was in power. But all the shit happening now will be pinned on the Pubs, whether it's fair or not. And especially where it's absolutely fair, such as prices, jobs, inflation, etc.
 
ZenMode said:
Right, each state had their own process.

No. I'm saying before 1790, people could be granted citizenship by individual states.

I'm sure they did think about citizenship. They also don't have the ability to see into the future, so they didn't know what they didn't know. Among the things the didn't know is that it would be possible to get to the US from any country in the world in a matter of hours, which would allow pregnant women to land just in time to squeeze out a "citizen". They also couldn't have predicted that the US would be positioned next to a "third" world country that would be illegally, but easily, entering the country and being counted in our census....

.... stuff like that.
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Right. Before the constitution, the constitutional provisions I'm referring to didn't apply. Did you come up with that all by yourself?

The whole "Framers can't see the future" is not relevant for this question. That's a jurisprudential consideration that could be discussed on a legal theory thread. Originalism denies this as relevant. I am not an originalist. But here, we have original intent, text, and policy and nothing else going the other way. Not going to debate you on this any more, now that you've revealed your point to be pure tautology.
 
TangledUpInBlue06 said:
No mail option? From a quick look it appears these offices are open M-F 8am-5pm, so someone working normal hours might have to take time off of work. That would cost them money, along with travel to the office, even if the ID is free.
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and don't worry, everyone has a car. Or perhaps Georgia has location all these offices in walkable or transit accessible areas?
 
superrific said:
Right. Before the constitution, the constitutional provisions I'm referring to didn't apply. Did you come up with that all by yourself?

The whole "Framers can't see the future" is not relevant for this question. That's a jurisprudential consideration that could be discussed on a legal theory thread. Originalism denies this as relevant. I am not an originalist. But here, we have original intent, text, and policy and nothing else going the other way. Not going to debate you on this any more, now that you've revealed your point to be pure tautology.
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Zen is just forecasting the next stage of "originalism" to be embraced by the Trump Court.
 
TangledUpInBlue06 said:
No mail option? From a quick look it appears these offices are open M-F 8am-5pm, so someone working normal hours might have to take time off of work. That would cost them money, along with travel to the office, even if the ID is free.
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Bullshit. If people want to vote they will find a way. The insistence that any effort at all required = disenfranchisement is just an excuse. The cost of an ID has been addressed. Again, the biggest disenfranchisement in history occurred in the last election.
 
Callatoroy said:
What is your objection to requiring a free ID in 2025? Please don't tell me because people can't get to where ID's could be made? Because that doesn't apply to 34 million people.
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I don't have an objection in theory. But I find the 34 million number astounding, and I'd like to understand why 34M people don't have IDs - and how they are able to manage life without one - before I offer a specific remedy.
 
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