CURRENT EVENTS

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What is perplexing to me is why an undocumented immigrant would be motivated to cast a fraudulent vote in an election ?
There is no evidence this has happened in elections.

But I remain open to see documentation from Calla and ram that this is a problem that requires "voter ID" beyond the normal checks regarding my name and address to be sure I am voting in the correct precinct.
 
Callatoroy said:
Bullshit. If people want to vote they will find a way. The insistence that any effort at all required = disenfranchisement is just an excuse. The cost of an ID has been addressed. Again, the biggest disenfranchisement in history occurred in the last election.
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Isn't it weird that the "BIGGEST DISENFRANCHISEMENT IN HISTORY!!!!" is only complained about by the people who were not impacted by it? Maybe that's one of those hyperboles you've been so determined to call out?
 
Huh? said:
I don't have an objection in theory. But I find the 34 million number astounding, and I'd like to understand why 34M people don't have IDs - and how they are able to manage life without one - before I offer a specific remedy.
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Not my number. Someone else threw it out. Doesn't matter if its 34 million or 24 million. The number, as you said is astounding.
 
lawtig02 said:
Isn't it weird that the "BIGGEST DISENFRANCHISEMENT IN HISTORY!!!!" is only complained about by the people who were not impacted by it? Maybe that's one of those hyperboles you've been so determined to call out?
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If you don't care that you had no say in who the dim nominee was that's on you. Still doesn't mean it didn't happen. Also, kind of undermines the left's argument about disenfranchisement with respect to any other issue. "Hey, its ok if we do it to our own peeps, but....."
 
Ramrouser said:
First, I see little to no burden in presenting an ID to vote in an election. We show ID for almost everything we do so why exempt voting? You can't enter a Federal Courthouse without presenting a valid ID and surrendering your phone.

Second, requiring ID adds confidence in voting in elections. You may dismiss the R's concerns in the voting in 2020 but the concerns were real and actually discouraged hundreds of thousands of citizens to not vote in the Senate run off the election in January 2021. Isn't the goal to encourage more, not less, people to vote? Georgia's new voting laws helped re establish confidence in voting in elections - the law has received almost universal praise in the State.

Third, deterrence. Requiring a valid ID will discourage any individuals or groups even thinking about committing voter fraud.

I'm not for making people jump through meaningless hoops just for the fun of it, but I don't think requiring an ID to vote falls into that category.
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I guess this qualifies as a thoughtful response from you, so thank you. I still have questions:

1. What do you mean, "the concerns were real"? Sure, they were real, but they were completely unfounded. So is that how we should be making policy? It's the government's job to protect people from threats that don't actually exist? This is the goal?

2. What about concerns among minorities and liberals that polling place voting requirements are going to be used for disenfranchisement? I mean, those concerns are both real and founded, given that many of the people most affected by these requirements literally grew up and reached adulthood in an era when they were not allowed to vote because of poll taxes, literacy tests, and so forth.

But let's say those concerns are outdated, and today are not founded. If we're making policy to protect people from non-existent threats, then how do you resolve this dispute? One group says, without foundation, that there's voting fraud. One group says the anti-fraud measures are disenfranchising. What principle do you suggest to sort this out, other than just a preference for white people?

3. People who didn't vote because they thought the election was rigged were stupid. That was a bad decision. I don't care about that at all.

4. You've spoken negatively about preclearance. I find that hard to reconcile with your current stance, since one of the points of preclearance was to establish confidence in the elections. The Voting Rights Act said, basically, "the DOJ is always on the case and will protect you from disenfranchising shenanigans, so the elections are not actually rigged." So if you want people to be confident in elections, you would favor preclearance. Is there any actual reason you don't, other than a preference for white people?

5. You didn't answer my question about deterrence so I will pose it again: how much should we invest in deterring non-threats? Should the school have spent $100 to put a button lock to prevent someone from stealing a 1000 pound, $1500 machine? Should we also have anti-alligator patrols in the sewers, to make sure that they don't get out and start chomping people in downtown Manhattan.

At what point is deterrence overkill, and even harmful because of its side effects? Are there any other non-problems you'd like to focus on? Why isn't the deterrence that we already have enough?

And as long as we are into deterrence, let's game this out. Homicide is illegal, but that's clearly not enough deterrence because still have homicides. What if we imposed a prophylactic measure to add additional deterrence? You know, like gun control. Is there any reason you are hostile to deterrence in one area but not the other, except for a preference for white people?
 
TangledUpInBlue06 said:
No mail option? From a quick look it appears these offices are open M-F 8am-5pm, so someone working normal hours might have to take time off of work. That would cost them money, along with travel to the office, even if the ID is free.
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Realistically, how many people with 9-5 jobs don't have a valid ID? I would imagine most people who have no ID don't work, are retired or in nursing homes and are likely on disability or receive social security. We're narrowing down the number of people impacted by this as pretty miniscule.

I honestly don't know how allegedly 34M people function without a valid ID in modern day America. I would like to see how many are under 65.
 
Bobfripp said:
Give me valid data showing the massive voter disenfranchisement. The experts I've heard - a lot of them Republican - found no significant voter fraud.
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approx 75 million people were given no choice as to who they wanted as the dim potus nominee. It was dictated to them by a handful of people. That's world record disenfranchisement there Dr. Bob
 
Don’t forgot, y’all, amidst all the kabuki theater and bad faith right wing talking points TRUMP IS DEEPLY ENTANGLED IN THE EPSTEIN FILES.
 
Ramrouser said:
Realistically, how many people with 9-5 jobs don't have a valid ID? I would imagine most people who have no ID don't work, are retired or in nursing homes and are likely on disability or receive social security. We're narrowing down the number of people impacted by this as pretty miniscule.

I honestly don't know how allegedly 34M people function without a valid ID in modern day America. I would like to see how many are under 65.
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And there are already methods in place for those people to vote.
 
heelinhell said:
What is perplexing to me is why an undocumented immigrant would be motivated to cast a fraudulent vote in an election ?
There is no evidence this has happened in elections.

But I remain open to see documentation from Calla and ram that this is a problem that requires "voter ID" beyond the normal checks regarding my name and address to be sure I am voting in the correct precinct.
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Goes beyond just illegal immigrants.
 
Callatoroy said:
If you don't care that you had no say in who the dim nominee was that's on you. Still doesn't mean it didn't happen. Also, kind of undermines the left's argument about disenfranchisement with respect to any other issue. "Hey, its ok if we do it to our own peeps, but....."
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Or maybe it means you're misreading the room. If you're able to recognize things like that.
 
Callatoroy said:
Not my number. Someone else threw it out. Doesn't matter if its 34 million or 24 million. The number, as you said is astounding.
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Would you be ok with accepting an expired photo driver license as proof to vote? Apparently, that would reduce the number to 5 million.
 
Callatoroy said:
approx 75 million people were given no choice as to who they wanted as the dim potus nominee. It was dictated to them by a handful of people. That's world record disenfranchisement there Dr. Bob
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I would like for Biden to have dropped out earlier and had a normal Dem primary, but while I can't speak for other Dems, I don't feel like I was disenfranchised.
 
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