DOGE Catch-All | DOGE ledger “riddled with errors”

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IMO, the only hope for the continuance of US democracy in the near/medium run, is a military coup or physical and psychological breakdown of Musk and ttump, and likely Miller and Vought. Even then, we all know the ... ummm ... checkered history of military coups returning power to the people.

Musk, et al. have the power to deny any form of government payment, until you render acceptable fealty to maga (individuals or businesses); at this moment, TEENAGE Musk acolytes have access to your social security number and biographical information (the amount of identity theft is about to go THROUGH THE ROOF); Musk is destroying people's livelihood for merely taking a course on diversity; Musk is destroying religiously oriented social services organizations merely because they serve immigrants and asylum seekers; the list goes on.

This is a full-on fascist and anarchist financial coup (which, truthfully, most coups are significantly about money), with the aim of eviscerating the middle and working class.
 
Paine said:
Anarchist probably isn’t a good word to describe a group of people that are attempting to further fuse state and corporate power to achieve their reactionary political goals. The traditional word used to describe this is: fascist.
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I think this is inaccurate at least according to none other than Benito Mussolini: “The Fascist State directs and controls the entrepreneurs, whether it be in our fisheries or in our heavy industry in the Val d'Aosta. There the State actually owns the mines and carries on transport, for the railways are state property. So are many of the factories… We term it state intervention… If anything fails to work properly, the State intervenes.”

In other words, the state gives businesses wide latitude until the businesses mess up and then the state takes over. In any case, the state is supreme over the business interests.

The technical term of corporations over the state is a corporatocracy. You really rarely see that at a national level. Some examples might be things like the British East India company or the Hudson Bay company. Some folks might call Saudi Arabia a corporatocracy. Disney world is a bit of a corporatocracy at least at the local level.
 
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Paine said:
Anarchist probably isn’t a good word to describe a group of people that are attempting to further fuse state and corporate power to achieve their reactionary political goals. The traditional word used to describe this is: fascist.
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I don't think Musk has real political goals. He just wants to drain the blood out of every living thing for his personal benefit. I see that as a form of anarchism, but reasonable minds could disagree.
 
gtyellowjacket said:
I think this is inaccurate at least according to none other than Benito Mussolini: “The Fascist State directs and controls the entrepreneurs, whether it be in our fisheries or in our heavy industry in the Val d'Aosta. There the State actually owns the mines and carries on transport, for the railways are state property. So are many of the factories… We term it state intervention… If anything fails to work properly, the State intervenes.”

In other words, the state gives businesses wide latitude until the businesses mess up and then the state takes over. In any case, the state is supreme over the business interests.

The technical term of corporations over the state is a corporatocracy. You really rarely see that at a national level. Some examples might be things like the British East India company or the Hudson Bay company. Some folks might call Saudi Arabia corporatocracy. Disney world has a bit of a corporatocracy at least at the local level.
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That’s fair. Ultimately, fascist is a term that has a very specific historical context that doesn’t really fit well to our current circumstances. The other piece being fascism generally requires a strong labor movement in opposition in order to frame its program.

I just think it’s the closest thing we have to a working term for Musk, Thiel, etc.
 
Paine said:
That’s fair. Ultimately, fascist is a term that has a very specific historical context that doesn’t really fit well to our current circumstances. The other piece being fascism generally requires a strong labor movement in opposition in order to frame its program.

I just think it’s the closest thing we have to a working term for Musk, Thiel, etc.
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The closest I can get is authoritarianism, with fascist tendencies.
 
StrangePackage said:
The term they prefer is neofeudalism.
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Is that from Thiel’s theory work? I’ll admit I can’t bring myself to read the stuff he puts out. Seems similar to the dribble that Yarvin espouses. IIRC, he is a big influence on Thiel.

ETA: just saw your edit re: Yarvin.
 
Paine said:
Is that from Thiel’s theory work? I’ll admit I can’t bring myself to read the stuff he puts out. Seems similar to the dribble that Yarvin espouses. IIRC, he is a big influence on Thiel.

ETA: just saw your edit re: Yarvin.
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Yarvin is a fucking moron, but he definitely calls for techno-feudalism with a CEO king and the right of exit for his subjects.
 
gtyellowjacket said:
I think this is inaccurate at least according to none other than Benito Mussolini: “The Fascist State directs and controls the entrepreneurs, whether it be in our fisheries or in our heavy industry in the Val d'Aosta. There the State actually owns the mines and carries on transport, for the railways are state property. So are many of the factories… We term it state intervention… If anything fails to work properly, the State intervenes.”

In other words, the state gives businesses wide latitude until the businesses mess up and then the state takes over. In any case, the state is supreme over the business interests.

The technical term of corporations over the state is a corporatocracy. You really rarely see that at a national level. Some examples might be things like the British East India company or the Hudson Bay company. Some folks might call Saudi Arabia corporatocracy. Disney world has a bit of a corporatocracy at least at the local level.
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This is different from what Musk is going how exactly?

Take your corporatocracy bullshit elsewhere. You have no idea what you're talking about. The idea that the British East India company was dominating the British crown is laughable. You're a mailman, Cliff. You don't know about the world more broadly than that.
 
Paine said:
That’s fair. Ultimately, fascist is a term that has a very specific historical context that doesn’t really fit well to our current circumstances. The other piece being fascism generally requires a strong labor movement in opposition in order to frame its program.

I just think it’s the closest thing we have to a working term for Musk, Thiel, etc.
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1. Fascism does not require a strong labor movement in opposition. Sometimes the labor movement is the fascism. And the fascists in Central America sure as hell didn't need labor movements to define them as fascists. The raping and pillaging of indigenous peoples is sufficient.

2. What yellowjacket said was silly. Nothing he wrote contradicted your point, so even if he wasn't full of shit, he'd still be wrong.
 
superrific said:
1. Fascism does not require a strong labor movement in opposition. Sometimes the labor movement is the fascism. And the fascists in Central America sure as hell didn't need labor movements to define them as fascists. The raping and pillaging of indigenous peoples is sufficient.

2. What yellowjacket said was silly. Nothing he wrote contradicted your point, so even if he wasn't full of shit, he'd still be wrong.
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This is all getting into the contemporary debates about historical fascism (some believe it should just be applied to the post-WWI movements) vs. just using it as a political signifier. I think there is merit to both arguments, and I don’t really fall fully on either side.

As I say, fascist is still a useful descriptor for the type of politics these cretins pine for, even if it doesn’t meet the technical definition of historical fascism. Overuse of it is dangerous though as it loses all significance.
 
I'd also point out that we are literally two weeks into this regime change. It is a useful two weeks, but there are still a lot of unknowns right now. It's useful to began discussing terminology, but we don't yet know how far Musk, Trump, et. al. plan to take things.
 
Paine said:
This is all getting into the contemporary debates about historical fascism (some believe it should just be applied to the post-WWI movements) vs. just using it as a political signifier. I think there is merit to both arguments, and I don’t really fall fully on either side.

As I say, fascist is still a useful descriptor for the type of politics these cretins pine for, even if it doesn’t meet the technical definition of historical fascism. Overuse of it is dangerous though as it loses all significance.
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Correct. I do not think it is being overused when applied to what is happening.

I think those debates about historical fascism are silly. Nothing is ever perfectly alike. The main differentiator these days is the ability to flood the zone like never before. If zone flooding had been possible in the 1930s and 1940s, I imagine there might have been more of it. I mean, they did flood the zone to some degree, but obviously the ability was limited.

If we want to say that Musk and Hitler aren't doing exactly the same thing, well of course. Neither were Stalin and Mao. That Musk and his people use "imperial CEO" instead of "Fuhrer" doesn't really make that much difference.
 
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