DOGE Catch-All | DOGE ledger “riddled with errors”

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Interesting, Do you think that means that your company is rife with fraud and waste? Because that's the logic you're applying to the government.

I mean you've been there since 2008 and the company keeps having these problems - do you think that means you need to be fired? That's the logic Trump and Elon are applying to the thousands of government employees they're summarily firing for no reason at all.
I don't know if rife is accurate, but there's obviously some kind of effort and review process to adjust. Of course, we are also a publicly traded company so we have an inherent inclination toward efficiency. The federal government, as we can see from the national debt, does not.
 
There's more to an economy than just taxes. You can't oversimplify it like you just did. Whether the "rich" is getting a tax cut is irrelevant considering the top earners are paying over 90% of the tax burden. The US has one of the highest corporations taxes. So cutting "rich" peoples taxes isn't really happening like you think it is. This has been debunked constantly. Democrat ran cities are struggling even you can't defend that garbage.
Buddy you were the one who said "tax cuts promote economic growth." This is your point we're discussing here, not mine. It's your "oversimplification" you're criticizing, not mine. If you think you can do this sort of goalpost-moving, shell-game-playing dance with me you picked the wrong partner.

Also it's laughable to call a tax cut on the rich "irrelevant" - we're talking about something like a $4 trillion tax cut here, with the vast majority going to the top 10% of tax payers. You want us to act like every cent the government spends inefficiently is a massive travesty then hand-wave away tax cuts that will cost the government trillions in revenue as "irrelevant." All while ignoring that the same lies about tax cuts fueling economic growth have been peddled for decades, with the evidence showing the opposite every time.

Like many modern-day conservatives you seem to just be looking for a boot to lick. What is the purpose of this idiotic loyalty to the Musk/Trump admin that causes you to talk in nonsensical circles trying to defend things that are indefensible? You're like a homeowner who gets mad that the general contractor is taking too long to repair your garage and decides that it would be better to see if shooting it with a bazooka will get better results. The status quo having some obvious problems doesn't mean the only option is to tear it down and start all over again - especially not in the way the Trump/Musk admin is approaching it.
 
the government will need to rehire more people than most pubs realize. The effects will be a total shitshow. Indeed, most people have zero understanding how our fed gov works and why it needs the people it does
Psst, the govt is doing more harm than good, it needs to be scaled back. We don't need more bureaucrats, more programs, more funding. Americans overwhelming just voted for Trump, you're dying on a crumbling hill.
 
There's more to an economy than just taxes. You can't oversimplify it like you just did. Whether the "rich" is getting a tax cut is irrelevant considering the top earners are paying over 90% of the tax burden. The US has one of the highest corporations taxes. So cutting "rich" peoples taxes isn't really happening like you think it is. This has been debunked constantly. Democrat ran cities are struggling even you can't defend that garbage.
Shoot, I'm not even a "rich person" and *my* taxes are getting cut under the Trump administration's tax proposal. And I'm merely just a dual-high income W-2 earning household who maximizes every possible advantaged retirement and savings account possible. So if my taxes are getting cut, it is absolutely true that the actually "rich people" are going to make out like bandits.

Under the Trump proposal, the middle fifth of Americans would see a tax increase of 2.1 percent of their income while the poorest fifth would see a hike of 4.8 percent. The richest 1 percent would receive an average tax cut equal to 1.2 percent of their income. The next richest 4 percent – with incomes between $360,000 and $914,900 – would receive an average tax cut equal to 1.3 percent of their income. (source linked here)

It's like I said earlier, Republican tax policies overwhelmingly favor the ultra-wealthy and harm everyone from the working class through the upper middle class. Democratic tax policies overwhelmingly favor the working class and folks up through the upper middle class, and "disadvantage" the ultra-wealthy. Obviously it's all a matter of personal policy preference, but unless you're in the top 1-2% of income-earners in the U.S., you're voting against your own financials when you vote Republican.
 
Psst, the govt is doing more harm than good, it needs to be scaled back. We don't need more bureaucrats, more programs, more funding. Americans overwhelming just voted for Trump, you're dying on a crumbling hill.
What do you think the word "overwhelming" means? Trump got less than 50% of the vote. And nobody at all voted for Elon Musk - who is unelected and currently completely unaccountable to any regulation or oversight - being given more power over the federal government than any other person has ever dreamed of.
 
I don't know if rife is accurate, but there's obviously some kind of effort and review process to adjust. Of course, we are also a publicly traded company so we have an inherent inclination toward efficiency. The federal government, as we can see from the national debt, does not.
Government spending already has far more in the way of "review" and "oversight" than private companies do, even publicly traded ones.

Also, the whole point is that government shouldn't prize efficiency over everything else. The postal service has to deliver mail to every address in the country, not just the ones it's efficient to deliver to. Social security is set up, intentionally, to value certainty of payments in a certain amount over riskier investment strategies that would bring the opportunity for higher returns but also more risk.

The government isn't run, and shouldn't be run, like a private company. Its goal is not maximizing value for shareholders, it's serving the best interests of the American people. And it is very easy to look at the business world and understand that those two objectives are often very much in conflict. This conservative/libertarian obsession with government being run like a corporation is tiresome.
 
As this thread gets longer, it's worth remembering DOGE is, in many ways, one of Trump's biggest feints. It's not that we should ignore it, as the very concept of DOGE is creating a horrific precedent, and it's adding tremendously to the disinformation storm that Trump is using to cover his consolidation of power. But the money DOGE will "save" is insignificant in the big scheme of things. The REAL damage Trump's team is doing right now is in (a) foreign policy, where he's actively destroying our most important alliances and handing enormous power to our autocratic enemies, and (b) his dismantling of vital federal agencies and departments, which as I understand it is largely being done through Trump's appointees and his legal team, and not through DOGE. He will also wreak havoc on the economy, but he's not able to do that as quickly as the harm he's causing to our foreign relations and the infrastructure that keeps the government functional.

So, all good to point out DOGE's absurdities. But the hyperfocus on Musk's irrelevant vanity project is distracting a lot of attention from the things Trump is doing that really matter.
 
What do you think the word "overwhelming" means? Trump got less than 50% of the vote. And nobody at all voted for Elon Musk - who is unelected and currently completely unaccountable to any regulation or oversight - being given more power over the federal government than any other person has ever dreamed of.
Beat Kamala by more than 2M votes probably more if California could count in a timely manner, won all the swing states, dominated electorally, and outperformed polling data.

No body voted for the inspector generals were trying to defend earlier either.
 
Government spending already has far more in the way of "review" and "oversight" than private companies do, even publicly traded ones.

Also, the whole point is that government shouldn't prize efficiency over everything else. The postal service has to deliver mail to every address in the country, not just the ones it's efficient to deliver to. Social security is set up, intentionally, to value certainty of payments in a certain amount over riskier investment strategies that would bring the opportunity for higher returns but also more risk.

The government isn't run, and shouldn't be run, like a private company. Its goal is not maximizing value for shareholders, it's serving the best interests of the American people. And it is very easy to look at the business world and understand that those two objectives are often very much in conflict. This conservative/libertarian obsession with government being run like a corporation is tiresome.
Working backwards....

Efficiency doesn't imply lack of execution of responsibilities. The post office's responsibility is to deliver to every corner of the country, but there are obviously more and less efficient ways to do that.

"Government spending already has far more in the way of "review" and "oversight" than private companies do, even publicly traded ones."

Based on what?
 
Beat Kamala by more than 2M votes probably more if California could count in a timely manner, won all the swing states, dominated electorally, and outperformed polling data.

No body voted for the inspector generals were trying to defend earlier either.
How would the amount of time taken to count votes change the result?
 
Psst, the govt is doing more harm than good, it needs to be scaled back. We don't need more bureaucrats, more programs, more funding. Americans overwhelming just voted for Trump, you're dying on a crumbling hill.
Psst. There's a reason you can't give us any significant examples of doing more harm than good. You've bought a myth.

1. Looking at it as harm and good isn't even a very helpful framework. In many cases, the government is doing what needs to be done. Another poster mentioned mail service. Or park rangers. You can't have national system of parks without rangers staffing it. And there isn't anyone else to do it. It's not good or bad per se; it's necessary for the choices that people make. If you don't want to have national parks, then that can be your opinion. I don't think it would be popular.

2. In economics, there's a concept called "public goods." These are goods that have broadly positive impacts on society, but won't be supplied by the market because no market actor can capture all the benefits. A great example is the Erie Canal. Toll revenue can only capture the value of the canal transport. The economic explosion of New York can't be monetized. Another example is the interstate highway system. That couldn't be built privately. I mean, it could, but it would be much less extensive. All the economic growth the highway system pursued is dispersed throughout the population, and can't be recouped by the builders. So a private interstate system would connect big cities on heavily traveled routes. Would there be an I-85 or I-77? Almost certainly not.

Much of government spending consists in the provision of public goods. The ultimate public good, of course, is a military. Roads. Parks. Rural electrification. So on and so forth. There are a million examples. Fishery management to prevent overfishing.

You benefit from these public goods every single day, without realizing it. I don't know where you live. Say you live in RTP. A generation or two ago, RTP was a backwater. How and why did it change? First, a concentration of government funded educational institutions. Second, a quality highway (I-40, not much traveled back in the day). Third, research support. And it was those factors that led Cary to transform from rural outpost to vibrant suburban community. When I was a kid, people called Fuquay-Varina "the redneck capital of the world." Not so much any more.

So everyone who works in or around RTP has benefited from the public goods provided by the government. Let's say you run a restaurant in Cary. Your restaurant only exists because of I-40, because the RTP only exists because of I-40, and your clientele is only there because of I-40. You don't see the impact because it's invisible to you in daily life, but the government support was critical.

3. There are thousands of examples all over the country, in all aspects of life, of society benefiting from the government's provision of public goods.

This might be why I don't get bothered by "waste" in government like you do. Could roads be better maintained by private actors than the state DOT? Maybe. Let's assume the answer is yes. But we'd have many fewer roads. The choice isn't between "good road" and "bad road." The choice is between "road" and "no road at all." Are there inefficiencies in federal research subsidies? Probably. But again, the choice isn't "efficient funding" versus "inefficient funding." It's between funding and no funding.

No amount of cajoling or auditing or whatever can remove all of the inefficiency. Leaving aside the significant inefficiency in private companies (note: I earned 90-100K per year during law school for about 10-15 hours of week of work because Bristol-Myers' IT staff was unable to complete relatively simple IT projects, so they hired it out to me and I did myself what 5-7 IT people would otherwise do, and better), inefficiencies in government are going to exist. You can't motivate people to work 60 hours a week for many years on a government salary. Government employees punch out promptly at closing time. Fine. It can be annoying. But again, the choice isn't "efficient versus inefficient." It's whether the service exists at all.
 
Working backwards....

Efficiency doesn't imply lack of execution of responsibilities. The post office's responsibility is to deliver to every corner of the country, but there are obviously more and less efficient ways to do that.

"Government spending already has far more in the way of "review" and "oversight" than private companies do, even publicly traded ones."

Based on what?
1. DOGE seems to be ignoring the responsibility. It's doing the equivalent of cutting postal service, not making postal service more efficient.
2. See my post above for an explanation of the economics. The short version: the government has some inefficiencies, for sure. But the alternative isn't efficiency. It's nothing. Some vitally important things just can't be done by the private sector. They can't be done without inefficiency.

The internet exists because of the government. The internet could not have been built privately. There was no money in it. After it was built and established and people started using the web, it became possible for private companies to play in that space. But it could never have happened otherwise. Cable TV could never have happened without the government's rural electrification programs (cable TV started life as a way of bringing TV signals to hilly or mountainous communities).

There are many, many examples of these sorts of things. You can't see it in your day to day life, perhaps, but you feel it without knowing.
 
Psst. There's a reason you can't give us any significant examples of doing more harm than good. You've bought a myth.

1. Looking at it as harm and good isn't even a very helpful framework. In many cases, the government is doing what needs to be done. Another poster mentioned mail service. Or park rangers. You can't have national system of parks without rangers staffing it. And there isn't anyone else to do it. It's not good or bad per se; it's necessary for the choices that people make. If you don't want to have national parks, then that can be your opinion. I don't think it would be popular.

2. In economics, there's a concept called "public goods." These are goods that have broadly positive impacts on society, but won't be supplied by the market because no market actor can capture all the benefits. A great example is the Erie Canal. Toll revenue can only capture the value of the canal transport. The economic explosion of New York can't be monetized. Another example is the interstate highway system. That couldn't be built privately. I mean, it could, but it would be much less extensive. All the economic growth the highway system pursued is dispersed throughout the population, and can't be recouped by the builders. So a private interstate system would connect big cities on heavily traveled routes. Would there be an I-85 or I-77? Almost certainly not.

Much of government spending consists in the provision of public goods. The ultimate public good, of course, is a military. Roads. Parks. Rural electrification. So on and so forth. There are a million examples. Fishery management to prevent overfishing.

You benefit from these public goods every single day, without realizing it. I don't know where you live. Say you live in RTP. A generation or two ago, RTP was a backwater. How and why did it change? First, a concentration of government funded educational institutions. Second, a quality highway (I-40, not much traveled back in the day). Third, research support. And it was those factors that led Cary to transform from rural outpost to vibrant suburban community. When I was a kid, people called Fuquay-Varina "the redneck capital of the world." Not so much any more.

So everyone who works in or around RTP has benefited from the public goods provided by the government. Let's say you run a restaurant in Cary. Your restaurant only exists because of I-40, because the RTP only exists because of I-40, and your clientele is only there because of I-40. You don't see the impact because it's invisible to you in daily life, but the government support was critical.

3. There are thousands of examples all over the country, in all aspects of life, of society benefiting from the government's provision of public goods.

This might be why I don't get bothered by "waste" in government like you do. Could roads be better maintained by private actors than the state DOT? Maybe. Let's assume the answer is yes. But we'd have many fewer roads. The choice isn't between "good road" and "bad road." The choice is between "road" and "no road at all." Are there inefficiencies in federal research subsidies? Probably. But again, the choice isn't "efficient funding" versus "inefficient funding." It's between funding and no funding.

No amount of cajoling or auditing or whatever can remove all of the inefficiency. Leaving aside the significant inefficiency in private companies (note: I earned 90-100K per year during law school for about 10-15 hours of week of work because Bristol-Myers' IT staff was unable to complete relatively simple IT projects, so they hired it out to me and I did myself what 5-7 IT people would otherwise do, and better), inefficiencies in government are going to exist. You can't motivate people to work 60 hours a week for many years on a government salary. Government employees punch out promptly at closing time. Fine. It can be annoying. But again, the choice isn't "efficient versus inefficient." It's whether the service exists at all.
This. This. This. A thousand times, this.
 
Shoot, I'm not even a "rich person" and *my* taxes are getting cut under the Trump administration's tax proposal. And I'm merely just a dual-high income W-2 earning household who maximizes every possible advantaged retirement and savings account possible. So if my taxes are getting cut, it is absolutely true that the actually "rich people" are going to make out like bandits.

Under the Trump proposal, the middle fifth of Americans would see a tax increase of 2.1 percent of their income while the poorest fifth would see a hike of 4.8 percent. The richest 1 percent would receive an average tax cut equal to 1.2 percent of their income. The next richest 4 percent – with incomes between $360,000 and $914,900 – would receive an average tax cut equal to 1.3 percent of their income. (source linked here)

It's like I said earlier, Republican tax policies overwhelmingly favor the ultra-wealthy and harm everyone from the working class through the upper middle class. Democratic tax policies overwhelmingly favor the working class and folks up through the upper middle class, and "disadvantage" the ultra-wealthy. Obviously it's all a matter of personal policy preference, but unless you're in the top 1-2% of income-earners in the U.S., you're voting against your own financials when you vote Republican.

In 2017 Trumps taxes cuts were...

The law retained the seven individual income tax brackets. The top rate fell from 39.6% to 37%, while the 33% bracket dropped to 32%, the 28% bracket to 24%, the 25% bracket to 22%, and the 15% bracket to 12%. The lowest bracket remained at 10%, and the 35% was unchanged.

[th]
Rate​
[/th][th]
Taxable Income Bracket​
[/th]​
[td]10%[/td][td]0 to $9,525[/td] [td]12%[/td][td]$9,525 to $38,700[/td] [td]22%[/td][td]$38,700 to $82,500[/td] [td]24%[/td][td]$82,500 to $157,500[/td] [td]32%[/td][td]$157,500 to $200,000[/td] [td]35%[/td][td]$200,000 to $500,000[/td] [td]37%[/td][td]$500,000 and up[/td]

Not sure why you're being dishonest about Trumps first tax cuts.
 
Working backwards....

Efficiency doesn't imply lack of execution of responsibilities. The post office's responsibility is to deliver to every corner of the country, but there are obviously more and less efficient ways to do that.

"Government spending already has far more in the way of "review" and "oversight" than private companies do, even publicly traded ones."

Based on what?
The point about the post office isn't that the post office shouldn't try, within legal constraints, to be as efficient as it can be. (Which, by the way, it does have an incentive to do as an agency, because its budget is limited and set by Congress, and it has to use that budget to do all its work.) The point is that it can't, and shouldn't, ever subordinate the provision of service to efficiency. For example, federal law sets postage rates for the entire country. It is obviously more expensive to deliver mail from Greensboro to rural Montana than from Greensboro to Raleigh - and private companies like FedEx and UPS can charge more for the former than the latter - but the post office has to charge the same rate for both. And the post office can't change those rates without going through several layers of review and oversight mean to confirm that the change is necessary, appropriate, and in the best interests of citizens who rely on being able to send mail. if anyone wanted to make the post office a more efficient operation, the obvious solution would be to charge more for its service - and to scale those charges based on the actual cost of delivering mail - but that solution isn't an option, and shouldn't be.

As for the latter point, I'm not really sure how that requires explanation. Anyone who has ever been part of bidding and executing a government contract understands how much oversight there is to prevent fraud. abuse, and favoritism in such contracts. Compare that to a private company, even a publicly traded one, where the CEO of a company generally can just enter whatever contract he likes, with shareholders having limited oversight over that decision (limited, for example, by the business judgment rule, which makes it very difficult to win a claim that the company's officers or directors acted inappropriately).

Federal agencies have their own internal embedded regulators who are responsible for investigating and eliminating fraud and waste. Federal agencies are subject to constant congressional oversight and can have their leaders called before Congress at any time to account for their spending, enforcement actions, and policymaking. Federal agencies are subject to all sorts of special rules and regulations about their spending and hiring. Publicly traded companies obviously have their own regulatory oversight, but the government can't closely review all of them all at once, and so things like fraud in federal filings or tax returns will often go unnoticed.
 

In 2017 Trumps taxes cuts were...

The law retained the seven individual income tax brackets. The top rate fell from 39.6% to 37%, while the 33% bracket dropped to 32%, the 28% bracket to 24%, the 25% bracket to 22%, and the 15% bracket to 12%. The lowest bracket remained at 10%, and the 35% was unchanged.

Not sure why you're being dishonest about Trumps first tax cuts.
There's a lot more to taxes than income brackets. Not sure why you're trying to talk about something you know little about.
 
(limited, for example, by the business judgment rule, which makes it very difficult to win a claim that the company's officers or directors acted inappropriately).
In Delaware, it is impossible to succeed in a claim that the company is being managed inefficiently, unless there's a self-dealing aspect which isn't part of our current hypo.

The only remedy for inefficiency is removing the board of directors via vote, or being purchased by a more efficient competitor.
 
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