Effects of a homebuying subsidy on home prices

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BTW, Super, don't be so thin skinned. I don't consider myself in a pissing match with you nor am I angry. I am sticking to my guns however, because you've not provided me a reason not to, at least not yet.

I am a fan of your legal analysis and I think it's a great service to the board.
 
At the end of the day, a stimulus driving the creation of more starter homes means less expensive starter homes than there otherwise would be without the stimulus, all other things being equal.

As homes are bought and sold many times over the years, this will advantage multiple generations of first time home buyers.

Nothing you have said in this thread to the contrary.
You don't even know if it will drive the creation of more starter homes. There are many reasons to question whether it would. A $500 stimulus would not. Is a $25K stimulus to some buyers big enough to do that? I don't know and neither do you.

What I do know is that the effect of the subsidy would wash out after the first purchase. It will advantage multiple generations of first time home buyers only if the subsidy sticks around for multiple generations. In the absence of the subsidy, there is no reason to think that the home market won't revert back to its equilibrium.

Bottom line: this is a half-measure that might have some impact (as I said, my initial intuition was the same as yours, but after thinking about it, I've become more skeptical), but it's mostly symbolic. The reality is that the American people have come to have ridiculous expectations for the president. It's as if anything and everything that happens is in the president's control. And when it's not, but the people demand it, these sorts of symbolic proposals are politically necessary.

The truth is that the real barriers to home building are local -- primarily restrictive zoning laws, building regulations, and NIMBY abuse of environmental laws. The president cannot realistically affect that. But people don't accept that, so they lap up bullshit. At least Kamala's ideas are only half bullshit, whereas Trump's ideas are like bullshit black holes. Infinite bullshit density.
 
I think a better use of federal money would be to directly build public housing again. If they can dramatically increase housing supply at a low cost, it will have a domino effect on the cost of other rental housing.
 
BTW, Super, don't be so thin skinned. I don't consider myself in a pissing match with you nor am I angry. I am sticking to my guns however, because you've not provided me a reason not to, at least not yet.
"Until I get something more substantial I'm lumping your insight in the "secret esoteric wisdom the uninitiated are incapable of understanding" junk drawer" is not polite. Especially when I provided more substantial insight into price theory than you can find anywhere without doing a lot of research. It boils down to this: the economy is a massive self-organizing system. It is therefore complex. That's not my fault. I can't fix that. I can only explain some of the complexity.

When you invited my comments, you didn't indicate that you wanted me to tell you what you want to hear. You said the opposite. You said, "Feel free to pick this apart all you want. I don't see a fundamental flaw in this logic, and if you do and can explain it to me lucidly, I will have leaned something." Well, there have been many fundamental flaws in your logic. I've deepened my understanding of the issue while engaged in this conversation, so that's good. But apparently you want me to endorse your conclusion that the subsidy program will be great and it will make housing more affordable and I just can't honestly do that. It would be a lie.

If that is thin-skinned, then so be it. I'm thin-skinned. I'm also unlikely to answer questions from you in the future.
 
I think a better use of federal money would be to directly build public housing again. If they can dramatically increase housing supply at a low cost, it will have a domino effect on the cost of other rental housing.
1. Yes, assuming they learn from the mistakes of the 60s and 70s.
2. But because of those mistakes, public housing is really unpopular -- so unpopular as to be more or less unmentionable. I mean, if Kamala had said that she wants to build more housing projects, her campaign would be over more quickly than Biden's.
 
Real Estate and building is always local and subject to local conditions. In most areas, this starter home effort will fail I think. Builders who build for the market have choices based on limited resources. That could be labor, land, or financing. So the builder will always choose bigger middle class home building to starter homes. For almost the same effort, the builder will have a much bigger profit on a bigger middle class house or nice empty nester.

Mentioned this to a lawyer friend the other day, and he said lawyers did the exact same thing on cases they take. Suspect the lawyers here could comment on that.

Starter home buyers need to go to renovated existing homes. Infrastructure is already there. I have ideas on how the government could simply spur the mortgage market to update the 30 year mortgage to a 25 year that reprices the interest rate around the 12.5 year mark. That way the initial interest rate would be much less and equity would build much faster which would help this buyer quickly trade up. Payment would be lower, but most importantly the down payment could be lowered from the traditional margin. There may be a similar product now, but not sure with the advantage of having a lower down payment that could be allowed due to the mortgage being safer with the equity building up quicker.
 
"Until I get something more substantial I'm lumping your insight in the "secret esoteric wisdom the uninitiated are incapable of understanding" junk drawer" is not polite. Especially when I provided more substantial insight into price theory than you can find anywhere without doing a lot of research. It boils down to this: the economy is a massive self-organizing system. It is therefore complex. That's not my fault. I can't fix that. I can only explain some of the complexity.

When you invited my comments, you didn't indicate that you wanted me to tell you what you want to hear. You said the opposite. You said, "Feel free to pick this apart all you want. I don't see a fundamental flaw in this logic, and if you do and can explain it to me lucidly, I will have leaned something." Well, there have been many fundamental flaws in your logic. I've deepened my understanding of the issue while engaged in this conversation, so that's good. But apparently you want me to endorse your conclusion that the subsidy program will be great and it will make housing more affordable and I just can't honestly do that. It would be a lie.

If that is thin-skinned, then so be it. I'm thin-skinned. I'm also unlikely to answer questions from you in the future.
Maybe an example will help. You've referenced several times that you've explained "lumpy demand"... only you haven't. You've brought up that the concept exists, true, but what you haven't done is explain how it works in theory, what conditions bring it about, explained how those conditions exist in the housing market, how is it affects markets in general and the housing market in specific, or why it would countervail the law of supply and demand in the context of additional supply added to the housing market.

That's 100% fine. It's not your job to educate me. At all. But still, tossing out jargon and saying "trust me, I know a lot about this" is not something I'm wired to swallow without asking for a better explanation.

You're free to supply it or not as you choose. But don't act offended that I haven't changed my mind after you've explained it all when you haven't actually explained it.
 
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I'll try another example. You reference that maybe the market might just return to it's equilibrium.

To me that sounds a bit mystical to my ear.

What I mean by that is the equilibrium as concept does not exist (to me at least) other than as the relatively steady state a complex system settles into after it's inputs stop changing. And since I'm talking specifically about changing certain inputs and holding others steady, and then you make a claim that the market is going to end up at some "equilibrium" that is not 100% determined by it's inputs, we'll that's mysticism.

It's fine to say we have no idea what these inputs are going to produce (and to some extent I think that's the road you are going down), but It's another kettle of fish entirely to say the system will gradually ignore these inputs because it has some external equilibrium it want to return to, which it sounded a lot like you were claiming.
 
I think a better use of federal money would be to directly build public housing again. If they can dramatically increase housing supply at a low cost, it will have a domino effect on the cost of other rental housing.
Yea now we need a new approach to make sure we don’t end up with high rise nightmares
I also greatly like partnering private sector. They own the house govt guarantees a steady payment
 
Maybe an example will help. You've referenced several times that you've explained "lumpy demand"... only you haven't. You've brought up that the concept exists, true, but what you haven't done is explain how it works in theory, what conditions bring it about, explained how those conditions exist in the housing market, how is it affects markets in general and the housing market in specific, or why it would countervail the law of supply and demand in the context of additional supply added to the housing market.

That's 100% fine. It's not your job to educate me. At all. But still, tossing out jargon and saying "trust me, I know a lot about this" is not something I'm wired to swallow without asking for a better explanation.

You're free to supply it or not as you choose. But don't act offended that I haven't changed my mind after you've explained it all when you haven't actually explained it.
Lumpy demand, in this context, means that demand is quantized, sort of like electric charge in an atom via electrons. With a few exceptions not really relevant here, people can own zero, one or two houses (more than two and we're not talking about people with any relevance to starter home discussions). You can't own half or three quarters. If you already have a home, you're not going to be buying another one.

This matters because it affects the way demand operates.

A. Again, let's first consider a non-lumpy good like, say, grapes. Let's say my target price for grapes is $5.00 a pound, and I'll buy one pound at that price. Your target price for grapes is $4.00 a pound, and so you will likely not buy grapes at $5.00 (but you might buy a few if you get a craving). In both cases, our demand still matters, because we might buy more when the price decreases. If the price drops from $5.00 to $4.50, I might buy 1.25 or 1.5 pounds. At that price, you might still abstain as a general matter, but would be increasingly tempted to buy, and buy more, on a craving. Thus, our demand matters to the producer's production function even if we are both not currently buying more than one pound of grapes.

When you move from two consumers to millions, you can see that the price will respond to demand at every single price level. A drop in price from $4.99 a pound to $4.89 a pound won't make much difference to most people, but there will be someone out there who is buying more grapes (whether that's some instead of none, or more instead of some) because of that price change.

B. Relatedly, in the market for grapes, the infra-marginal consumers are protected by the marginal ones. That is, suppose there's a third person who is wiling to buy a pound of grapes for $20. That person could get really gouged (at least in reference to the grape prices we are used to), but won't be because the producer would rather a lot of grapes at $5 a pound than a small number of grapes at $20 a pound. Note that price-discriminating retailers might find other ways to extract that $20 per pound -- for instance, by selling special premium grapes (e.g. "vine-ripened" or "locally grown") -- but that's sort of tangential. The point is that almost nobody has to pay their full reservation price. They are protected by the demand that exists below the current market price.

C. None of this works the same way for housing, because once I buy a house, I'm out of the market. With grapes, I can buy 1.5 pounds in response to a sale. I cannot buy 1.5 houses. And you can't splurge on a craving. If you're looking to spend $200K on a house, and the cheapest house in the market is $250K, your demand is irrelevant unless the house price drops a lot. Your house consumption can only be one or zero. In addition, there are only going to be a handful of people bidding on a house. Maybe a dozen. Not a million. And the bids are all coming from the same local area.

All this is to say that the marginal consumers do not protect the infra-marginal consumer. A seller cannot sell more house by dropping the price a bit. The seller only drops the price when buyers fail to materialize, and even then only by a little bit. It's usually better to wait for the deep pocketed buyer (analogous to the guy who will pay well more than $5 a pound for grapes) than to take the first deal that comes up. You can see this effect in the way that houses often stay on the market for a long time -- far longer than grapes or dishwashing detergent.

So now if everyone has $25K more than they did before, the house sellers might jack up prices by $25K and use the same strategy they have been using: wait for the deep pocket to show up who will pay close to ask, rather than drop the price by a bunch to sell more. Well, if house builders know that's how they are going to be selling their houses, they won't build more in response to the $25K. They will build the same amount and charge more.

Do you now see why this is different? Go back to the example of the house I bid on against eight other bidders. Literally it does not matter whether I put in a bid or not. The seller got the price s/he wanted (actually, quite a bit more) from the deep pocket. One supposes that the number of bidders changes the behavior of bidders at least a little bit, and that people might be willing to bid a bit more if there are 30 bidders rather than 10. But that's a very small effect, even if it exists. It's certainly not going to be an active issue in the vast majority of house sales.

In a lumpy demand market, marginal demand outside the market price often doesn't matter at all. So adding additional demand might not make any difference to the market price at all.

Does this help? You could have just asked me to explain what I meant by that term instead of saying that you would put it in a junk drawer.
 
I'll try another example. You reference that maybe the market might just return to it's equilibrium.

To me that sounds a bit mystical to my ear.

What I mean by that is the equilibrium as concept does not exist (to me at least) other than as the relatively steady state a complex system settles into after it's inputs stop changing. And since I'm talking specifically about changing certain inputs and holding others steady, and then you make a claim that the market is going to end up at some "equilibrium" that is not 100% determined by it's inputs, we'll that's mysticism.

It's fine to say we have no idea what these inputs are going to produce (and to some extent I think that's the road you are going down), but It's another kettle of fish entirely to say the system will gradually ignore these inputs because it has some external equilibrium it want to return to, which it sounded a lot like you were claiming.
That isn't what an equilibrium means. An equilibrium means that the system has a state to which it will return even when the inputs change. For instance, the equilibrium position of a ball is at the bottom of a hill. If you roll it part of the way up the hill, it will roll back down. There's nothing you can do, save removing the ball from the valley or making structural changes to the valley (like barriers), to keep the ball from returning to the bottom.

A slightly more realistic but still familiar example: ACC basketball. The equilibrium from 1980-2020 has been that Duke and UNC are the top programs. One of the two, and usually both, are almost always in the top 2 or 3 teams in the league. The equilibrium is that Wake is usually bad. Why? Because the system is structured to that end. When UNC hired Matt Doherty and then fired him because he sucked, we had Roy Williams ready to take over. Wake doesn't have a Roy Williams. And if Wake did find a Roy Williams, that guy would quickly leave for a bigger program and Wake would have to hire someone else, who won't leave and has to be fired. Thus the equilibrium is that Wake will have a bad coach. And thus the equilibrium is also that Wake will lack good players (which is also because good players don't want to go to bad programs). When UNC doesn't have enough talent, we go get more. Wake can't do that. It can get a Chris Paul or Tim Duncan here or there, but can't sustain that success.

In football, the equilibrium is different, because the system is structured differently. In basketball, the team's success is primarily determined by the best three or four players. Having Duke next door to UNC is a recruiting boon for both teams, because they can offer top recruits the ability to compete against other top players. But in football, one or two superstar players is not enough to be good, or at least not enough to be great. The team's success is more determined by the quality of the 10th-20th best players. In this situation, it's not good that we are next to other DI programs. It means that we will only get half or less of the top 20 recruits in our state. Some will go to NCSU. Some will go to Clemson or VAT and of course FSU and GA sometimes come calling.

Compare to Nebraska in the 80s and 90s. They had no competition for in-state recruiting. In fact, they had little competition in their entire region. Nebraska and Oklahoma basically had their pick of players from Nebraska, Oklahoma, Kansas, Missouri, Colorado, Iowa, etc. The equilibrium was that they would continue to attract talent because the system structurally favored them. They were always going to be better than NC. To the extent that they have fallen off, it's because of another structural change -- this time, it's the rule and scheme changes that have made the recruiting bases in the plains states less fertile. Size is less important; speed more so.

And so in economic markets, equilibrium is the state to which a market will return when dislocated, because of structural factors. Ball bearings are a commodity product. They are sold by many, many different producers, and for the most part, the products are undifferentiated. There's no big money to be made in ball bearings. I mean, you can make a nice living, but there are no billion dollar ball bearings fortunes. Now, suppose that one ball bearing manufacturer discovers some new process that allows them to make bearings at considerably lower price than competitors. Well, their business will start booming. They can lower their prices, sell more volume and increase their profit margins all at once.

So what happens in the ball bearings market in response to this change in inputs (the technical phrase is exogenous change)? Well, the other bearings manufacturers figure out how to do the same thing. Or maybe new manufacturers with similar processes enter. What will not happen is that original innovator retaining its market share. Structurally, the market cannot support a dominant firm with a premium supplier, because in the end all ball bearings are the same, and it's super-easy to start making and selling ball bearings if profits in the industry get too high.

Compare to the equilibrium in a tech market. DOJ is bringing an antitrust case against an alleged monopolist. AT&T, right? I mean, Microsoft. I mean Google. I mean Apple. The equilibrium in tech is the opposite of ball bearings because of network effects. Everyone had to write their apps for Windows because Windows was what everyone used. Might a Windows competitor show up? Like Linux? Sure. But few people are going to want to write apps for a system that nobody uses, and nobody is going to write an OS when there are no apps to use it for. So Linux has never had really any consumer market penetration at all. The same is true for Android and iOS. In addition, it's really, really hard to break into the market, because designing an affordable, working, bug-free smart phone is really, really expensive.

Thus, tech markets can almost always be counted on to have a handful of dominant firms at most, and often just one or two. That's the equilibrium for tech. The equilibrium for ball bearings is very low concentration in market share. Any change in inputs will be resisted by the system properties and the system will soon return to its normal state unless there is a very significant "disruption."

So what does that mean for housing? Well, the lumpy demand I described above creates an equilibrium, and that equilibrium is likely to be different than grapes. In construction, over-supply is common, and builders have to work hard to avoid getting caught with huge unsold inventory. That's because their market can dry up, because people only buy one house and they can time their purchases. In grapes, that's much less the case. Over-production is rare, because demand is steady and more predictable, and over-production quickly corrects itself. Usually producers plant the right amount; it's the weather that determines whether they have a good or bad year.

Now, I'm not a construction industry expert. I can't tell you in any great detail, and certainly not with high confidence, exactly what the equilibrium in the housing market looks like. But there is an equilibrium, and it won't be the same type of equilibrium as with grapes.

Does this help? For further study, you might read or think about the so-called "prisoner's dilemma." You've probably heard of it; I'm not sure how deeply you've thought about it. I tend to use the phrase sub-optimal equilibrium to describe the situation, because that better describes what it is. Two prisoners want to plead out to minor charges and get six months in jail, and if they could coordinate, that's exactly what they would do. Neither will flip. But if they can't coordinate, then they will both flip on each other, even though in that situation they would get six years. And that will tend to happen no matter what the inputs are, so long as the reward for flipping alone is better than the reward for both flipping or both not flipping. The choice to flip strictly dominates the choice not to flip.

In economics, this explains why it's hard for producers to collude. OPEC, for instance, is only partly successful at controlling the output of its own members, and so the price of oil is always less than the OPEC target (even without much non-OPEC supply). At the meeting, everyone gets a quota. But cheating on the quota strictly dominates obeying the quota. Nobody wants to be the sucker obeying the quota when everyone else is cheating, so everyone cheats in the expectation that everyone else will. The equilibrium is cheating.

Does this help explain?
 
While this thread isn't necessarily the most important thing going on, I did write a couple of useful explanations there that might benefit some people and I'm bumping it in the hope that my labor will not go for naught.
 
I suppose the Federal govt could toss around multiples of 10 billion in the form of State or City Grants to encourage building affordable homes or rentals. The "good part " about this is that the States would have to use their Zoning power etc to free things up .
We have decades of experience with failed efforts in Housing (City run high rise tenements )Maybe we can learn from those midtskes . We know Affordable housing in Manhattan and San Francisco is not really possible-but maybe they could somehow be allowed to use it for Homelessness efforts
The subsidized govt efforts to encourage local property owners to have decent price rental with guaranteed rental payments works well-it is funded at a level where folks wait 10 years for such a spot
Habitat could be a potential beneficiary from States-of course the push would be for Mark Robinsons church to get grants
I would much prefer such an effort to giving my son a $25,000 down payment (although in the case of my son that would be cool )
 
That isn't what an equilibrium means. An equilibrium means that the system has a state to which it will return even when the inputs change. For instance, the equilibrium position of a ball is at the bottom of a hill. If you roll it part of the way up the hill, it will roll back down. There's nothing you can do, save removing the ball from the valley or making structural changes to the valley (like barriers), to keep the ball from returning to the bottom.
My definition is exactly what equilibrium is. You are describing a special case where the the function that models the system happens to have a same state with those two different inputs. But that's a specific characteristic of the function and not "everything generically tries to get back to where it was". If I move the ball to the other side of the hill it rolls down that side, it doesn't "try to get back to where it was"

(I do see where you're attempting to make the case about the housing market function has a similar characteristic and do want to dive back into this more fully but I have to run now, I'll chew it over and get back)
 
That isn't what an equilibrium means. An equilibrium means that the system has a state to which it will return even when the inputs change. For instance, the equilibrium position of a ball is at the bottom of a hill. If you roll it part of the way up the hill, it will roll back down. There's nothing you can do, save removing the ball from the valley or making structural changes to the valley (like barriers), to keep the ball from returning to the bottom.
There are unstable equilibriums. Think local max value. And neutral equilibriums. Think saddle point. In addition to stable equilibriums (which you are talking about), which you can think of as local min value.
 
Oh shit-somebody just add a little about what the Govt might could get done that might acually work a little
 
I did about three posts ago What do you think
I personally think it could be a help for some, but I'm not expert on such matters - neither the economic side nor the political side. As I pointed out on page one, I still could see how simply giving $ in the way proposed would have more impact on rising house prices than it would on anything else.
 
I personally think it could be a help for some, but I'm not expert on such matters - neither the economic side nor the political side. As I pointed out on page one, I still could see how simply giving $ in the way proposed would have more impact on rising house prices than it would on anything else.
Some sort of combination of sweat equity and cost subsidized program like Habitat for Humanity is the best way to create new houses without causing the prices to remain less impacted. I'm just skeptical about how it could be done unless you roll it out like a WPA or Conservation Corp maybe forgiveness of education debt for labor participation? Otherwise if everyone knows you have an extra $25K the price is cost plus $25K.
 
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