Green Party’s goal is to make Kamala lose

[nycfan]

 

[heelinhell]

Makes me proud to be a white college graduate

 

[Ddseddse]

Lest we forget... 2016...

• MI: 51,463 Stein votes. If 22% of those folks voted Clinton she would have won MI's 16 electoral votes.
• WI: 31,072 Stein votes. If 73% of those folks voted Clinton she would have won WI's 10 electoral votes.
• PA: 49,941 Stein votes. If 87% of those folks voted Clinton she would have won PA's 20 electoral votes.

The argument can (and should) be made that the Stein vote locked up the White House for Donald Trump in 2016.

While it's clear that Stein herself is actively evil, the rank and file of the Green party are not evil, just delusionally misguided.

 

[Zoo_View]

Lest we forget... 2016...

• MI: 51,463 Stein votes. If 22% of those folks voted Clinton she would have won MI's 16 electoral votes.
• WI: 31,072 Stein votes. If 73% of those folks voted Clinton she would have won WI's 10 electoral votes.
• PA: 49,941 Stein votes. If 87% of those folks voted Clinton she would have won PA's 20 electoral votes.

The argument can (and should) be made that the Stein vote locked up the White House for Donald Trump in 2016.

And, Jill Stein and her voters are happy with that.

 

[Healing]

And leftists will once again primarily have themselves to blame for not only failing to come any closer to having political power but in fact reversing progress on causes they claim to care about.

My cynicism has engrained the perspective that “claim” is doing yoeman’s work. Plenty of leftists rightfully vote pragmatically. I think the ones voting for Stein, in this political climate, are charitably naive with a heaping portion of contrarian “I’m the mostest specialist”.

 

[gtyellowjacket]

Lest we forget... 2016...

• MI: 51,463 Stein votes. If 22% of those folks voted Clinton she would have won MI's 16 electoral votes.
• WI: 31,072 Stein votes. If 73% of those folks voted Clinton she would have won WI's 10 electoral votes.
• PA: 49,941 Stein votes. If 87% of those folks voted Clinton she would have won PA's 20 electoral votes.

The argument can (and should) be made that the Stein vote locked up the White House for Donald Trump in 2016.

While it's clear that Stein herself is actively evil, the rank and file of the Green party are not evil, just delusionally misguided.

I'm not sure if that kind of analysis is really all that enlightening. If Hillary had been able to flip .025% of Trump voters, she would have won Michigan. I have to think that some moderates in a heavily unionized state that went mostly for Trump were a whole lot more persuadable than some green voters but Hillary didn't get it done.

 

[rodoheel]

I'm not sure if that kind of analysis is really all that enlightening. If Hillary had been able to flip .025% of Trump voters, she would have won Michigan. I have to think that some moderates in a heavily unionized state that went mostly for Trump were a whole lot more persuadable than some green voters but Hillary didn't get it done.

In this instance I think you're both right:

--Hillary could and should have campaigned better (and, just, more) in the midwestern states she took for granted, and she and her campaign deserve blame for not doing so
--Notwithstanding Hillary's mistakes, if the people who threw their votes away for Stein instead voted pragmatically then Hillary could have held on notwithstanding those mistakes

 

[heelinhell]

Lest we forget... 2016...

• MI: 51,463 Stein votes. If 22% of those folks voted Clinton she would have won MI's 16 electoral votes.
• WI: 31,072 Stein votes. If 73% of those folks voted Clinton she would have won WI's 10 electoral votes.
• PA: 49,941 Stein votes. If 87% of those folks voted Clinton she would have won PA's 20 electoral votes.

The argument can (and should) be made that the Stein vote locked up the White House for Donald Trump in 2016.

While it's clear that Stein herself is actively evil, the rank and file of the Green party are not evil, just delusionally misguided.

then toss in the Bernie bros who stayed home and pouted...

 

[Healing]

then toss in the Bernie bros who stayed home and pouted...

Most of those are barely distinguishable from Stein voters, IMO, and are probably as likely to be ttumpers now as persuadable Harris voters. They want to feel special and the pursuit of exogenous gratification defines them.

 

[4thgenheel]

She’s been a Russian asset for a long time.

stein herself, sure.

but how TF did the green party become hostage to this absolute nonsense? are there no adults in the room over there? wtf?

 

[BlooVooDoo]

I don't think its illogical. MAGA and before that Evangelicals have proven its very effective for a certain wing of your party to demand more consideration for their favored positions. Romney and McCain lost in large part because they


Refusing to compromise worked for MAGA and before that evangelicals.

The difference is MAGA and evangelicals are a significant portion of the GOP. When the Greens win a primary against a democratic candidate for House (or even state senate), much less actually win a general election for anything of note, they’ll have something to build on. Until then, they remain an unserious faction and useful tools of foreign governments.

 

[heelinhell]

It’s chronic with y’all, isn’t it?

Nothing wrong with reminding those who voted for Nader gave us Bush and the Iraq War
Nothing wrong with reminding those Stein voters and pouty Bernie bros gave us Trump and a corrupt SCOTUS

My hope is the reminder may persuade those voters to consider being a bit more thoughtful and pragmatic this time because our democracy is on the ballot

 

[Ddseddse]

It’s chronic with y’all, isn’t it?

More

Shaming is never a good tactic, IMO.

I don’t care about the Nader stuff, I just don’t understand the compulsion of a certain segment of liberals to blame the mythic “Bernie Bro” for the 2016 election.

It’s just a way to shift all the blame off of the Clinton campaign and the Democratic Party.

We want leftists to run in our party rather than feeling alienated and voting for Stein or whoever, but you also continue to blame them for 2016? It makes no sense as an electoral tactic, and it makes no sense given the facts of the 2016 election.

It will be chronic as long as Trump remains chronic. Reconcile yourself to that.

Real people were wounded. There are children out there right now who have never seen their parents again after the Trump administration literally ripped them screaming from their parents arms.

Maybe you can find some of them and explain to them how you just want a more progressive US.

Sorry, I really don't want to come down so hard on you, but a little perspective can be a good thing.

I have a magnet on my fridge purchased from the Holocaust memorial in Washington DC. It simply says "What you do matters".

What we do matters.

 

[rodoheel]

Shaming is never a good tactic, IMO.

I don’t care about the Nader stuff, I just don’t understand the compulsion of a certain segment of liberals to blame the mythic “Bernie Bro” for the 2016 election.

It’s just a way to shift all the blame off of the Clinton campaign and the Democratic Party.

We want leftists to run in our party rather than feeling alienated and voting for Stein or whoever, but you also continue to blame them for 2016? It makes no sense as an electoral tactic, and it makes no sense given the facts of the 2016 election.

There is plenty of blame to go around in 2016, and both the Clinton campaign and leftists can share in that blame. What, in my opinion, frustrates liberals/centrists about leftists today is their seeming continued ignorance of the implications of losing presidential elections to Republicans (in particular as it pertains to control over Supreme Court seats) in favor of prioritizing internecine squabbles with centrists who won't move left enough. You could perhaps somewhat excuse naivete in 2016, though it was still foolish when we knew for a fact one Supreme Court seat was on the line. You can't excuse it now, when we see exactly what Trump's election wrought - most importantly, three Supreme Court seats that titled the Court's composition for decades to come and singlehandedly did more to reverse progressive progress (and the prospect for future progress) than any other political event this century. Not to mention the continued acceleration of executive power and the continued dismantling of the federal government.

If someone who claims to be a leftist can't be bothered to vote for the left-most major party nominee, when it is 100% crystal clear that doing so means the continued rightward tilt of the all-important Supreme Court and the continued drift of our government towards authoritarian fascism, then they are either not really interested in enacting progressive policy or they are an absolute fool. i understand that leftists don't like the political system or the rules of the game, but they can't change the system or the game simply by pouting and refusing to play at all. Settling internecine policy fights between leftists and centrists about Palestine, the environment, or anything else needs to wait until the election is won.

 

[heelinhell]

Shaming is never a good tactic, IMO.

I don’t care about the Nader stuff, I just don’t understand the compulsion of a certain segment of liberals to blame the mythic “Bernie Bro” for the 2016 election.

It’s just a way to shift all the blame off of the Clinton campaign and the Democratic Party.

We want leftists to run in our party rather than feeling alienated and voting for Stein or whoever, but you also continue to blame them for 2016? It makes no sense as an electoral tactic, and it makes no sense given the facts of the 2016 election.

Reminding is not shaming

This is not an election for the far left to die on the hill in protest that their vision of a utopian American society will not be actualized in 2024.

 

[finesse]

There were plenty of us who pointed out that the biggest issue in that race was who appointed the next members of the Supreme Court. WE knew it was going to be at least one. I guess the far left thought that the more moderate Dems would carry their water for them in electing Hillary while they sniffed, looked down their noses and talked about how important standing on principle was. How'd that work out?

 

[Ddseddse]

This is exactly what I mean. When the term Bernie Bro gets thrown out there, a lot of assumptions are made about what that means. It allows people to map their grievances onto some “other” in the same way that the right does.

I’m not sure why you’re preaching to me in this post like I’m not going to vote for Harris. I realized a long time ago that it is best for my kind of politics that we have Dems in office at all levels.

The truth is, Bernie 2016 voters encompassed a wide variety of people. Some were folks who were just upset at the system. Some were actual leftists. Some were progressive Dems. To lump all these people together under one banner just to put the 2016 loss on them is not helpful in many ways.

It’s definitely not helpful to the marginalized people, many of whom supported and/or voted for Bernie, who you claim to represent.

I agree that what we do matters. Is shaming Bernie Bros, in the year of our lord 2024, something that gets us to where we want politics to be? Or does it drive away the very people we need to be bringing in?

There's only one assumption I'm interested in . Will you deploy your vote strategically to prevent another national nightmare?

That's it.

I could give a fig about a Bernie bro one way or the other beyond that. Believe what you want, work for what you want. Decry what you want.

As for me, I love me some Bernie! You couldn't grow a better senator in a lab. He doesn't have the Foreign policy chops to be a president, but that doesn't take away from what he does now.

But at the end of the day my thoughts and feelings don't have any impact on who ends up running the country, only my vote does.

The Trump presidency generated enough national trauma that there will be lasting resentment at Bernie bros, Green Party types, and other people of good will who in the totality could have easily prevented a Trump presidency if they could have just gotten over themselves for the 20 minutes it would have taken to cast a ballot for Clinton.

 

[Ddseddse]

Most Bernie supporters did vote for Clinton. That’s where this argument falls flat. It makes no sense to blame the entire left for the actions of a few idiots. It makes no sense to blame Bernie for the actions of people who may have voted for him in the primary.

The Trump election should’ve generated much more animosity towards neoliberalism than leftism. Whose purposes are you serving by discrediting the left in this way?

I feel the need to stand up as the board’s resident leftist. I’ll just leave the argument here because I’ve had it several times. If liberals directed as much ire at the Democratic Party’s support of a genocide as they direct at a small subset of leftists, then it’s likely this wouldn’t be an election issue to begin with.

Like I said, if we could just retire Bernie Bro from the lexicon, I’d appreciate it. The vast majority of Bernie Sanders’ voters in 2016 and 2020 voted for the Democratic nominee. You’re only pissing off people in your coalition by using that made up BS.

I'm not making any arguments against Bernie Bros. No. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

I'm just venting a bit about folks of good will who are old enough to vote and therefore old enough to know better, who knew what the stakes were but couldn't get past their own self importance to do what needed to be done in the moment.

If nothing else, it's a great reminder that this is a great big cost benefit analysis.

If there's a random 10% chance that pushing the red button will kill you, but somebody offers you $100 to push it, do you push it?

No! You shove your damn hands in your pockets, kick a rock, and say damn I sure wish I had that hundred dollars!

Even if you thought that Clinton would coast to victory, do you lodge a protest vote? No! Given the consequences you don't take that chance!

 

[Ddseddse]

Okay, then we are in agreement. The other poster used the term “Bernie Bro”. I’m just sick of hearing it and have somewhat of a visceral reaction to it.

I make all the same arguments to any leftist that isn’t voting for Harris, especially in a swing state.

The only people I wouldn’t make that argument to are people who have family directly affected by our military support of Israel.

Yeah, at the end of the day I think we're coming form the same place. But there's real PTSD trauma there from losing a winnable election, I maybe vented a bit there. Sorry for the rant.

 

[finesse]

More of the blame are the gullible who distrusted her because of .at that time, 25 years of political vilification at the hands of Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, American Spectator and others. The strange thing is that it worked on her as well. It pretty much stifled any spontaneity that she ever had and became that cold calculating person she was perceived to be. Well, was , by that time. It's a long time to spend under the microscope without being that way when a misstep was going to be so widely trumpeted.