Green Party’s goal is to make Kamala lose

[Paine]

I have zero problems with specific, nuanced critiques of what choices the Biden admin has made or not made with respect to Israel. I, too, would prefer that we not send Israel any more offensive weapons. I would prefer that we come out more strongly against Israel when it demonstrably oversteps. But I generally don't hear leftists saying those sorts of things in measured, reasonable tones. Instead, it all gets boiled down to a flat moral right/wrong statement like "The administration is supporting genocide." It gets boiled down to protestors yelling at Kamala rallies that she's a murderer and war criminal. I don't think that's entirely fair, and more importantly I think framing critiques in those sorts of terms is what makes leftists (especially young leftists) stay away from the polls altogether, or throw their vote away on Jill freaking Stein. It makes it easier for voters - especially young voters - to reach the simplistic conclusion that "both parties are evil" and it therefore doesn't matter which one you vote for, because Dems are just as bad as Republicans. When in reality, even if you think Dems are just as bad as Republicans on Palestine (which I think is not the case, but fine) they are most assuredly not just as bad on a whole host of other important domestic and foreign policy issues.

Fair enough. I agree with most of what you’ve said in this post. I tend to give leftist college protestors the benefit of the doubt, which I guess is a bias of mine. I know that, generally, if they care enough to protest on this issue, then they know the history. College protestors, unlike me, are making a moral stand. They aren’t protesting as an electoral tactic.

I wouldn’t ever talk about Biden perpetuating a genocide to a group of voters I’m trying to persuade to vote for Dems. I don’t think that’s what this forum is. I don’t think it’s fair to say Kamala is a murderer or a war criminal either, that’s a pretty extreme example of what protestors chant.

Even then, my point about her breaking with Biden in an nuanced way stands. I think the protestors are smarter than people give them credit for, and they would recognize a nuanced shift in position.

She loses credibility every time she repeats the lie that they’re doing everything they can to get a ceasefire, though.

 

[rodoheel]

Fair enough. I agree with most of what you’ve said in this post. I tend to give leftist college protestors the benefit of the doubt, which I guess is a bias of mine. I know that, generally, if they care enough to protest on this issue, then they know the history. College protestors, unlike me, are making a moral stand. They aren’t protesting as an electoral tactic.

I wouldn’t ever talk about Biden perpetuating a genocide to a group of voters I’m trying to persuade to vote for Dems. I don’t think that’s what this forum is. I don’t think it’s fair to say Kamala is a murderer or a war criminal either, that’s a pretty extreme example of what protestors chant.

Even then, my point about her breaking with Biden in an nuanced way stands. I think the protestors are smarter than people give them credit for, and they would recognize a nuanced shift in position.

She loses credibility every time she repeats the lie that they’re doing everything they can to get a ceasefire, though.

All fair. Good discussion.

 

[Caribou]

Those insane left folks aren't and never will be winnable

They only want to complain and really don't care about outcomes

Describes the far left, hyper online, Chapo podcast listening types to a T

 

[Zoo_View]

Agreed. That’s why a two state solution is a pipe dream at this point, perhaps it always was. At least as long as one state was an ethnostate. The solution is a one free state where everyone, Jew, Palestinian, whatever, has equal rights.

That’s never happening.

 

[mynameisbond]

Agreed. That’s why a two state solution is a pipe dream at this point, perhaps it always was. At least as long as one state was an ethnostate. The solution is a one free state where everyone, Jew, Palestinian, whatever, has equal rights.

I don’t see that ever happening tho

 

[gtyellowjacket]

I don’t see that ever happening tho

It happened to South Africa. It actually happened all over the world when different colonies reverted back to the natives with varying degrees of violence and varying degrees of success. Israel is really fighting against the tides of history at this point.

 

[finesse]

It happened to South Africa. It actually happened all over the world when different colonies reverted back to the natives with varying degrees of violence and varying degrees of success. Israel is really fighting against the tides of history at this point.

Your comparison is highly flawed starting with the disparity in arms, the difference in public opinion and that Gaza was not and is not a colony.

I see no point in going into any detail with you.

 

[gtyellowjacket]

Your comparison is highly flawed starting with the disparity in arms, the difference in public opinion and that Gaza was not and is not a colony.

I see no point in going into any detail with you.

Every colonial power had a massive disparity in arms over their colonists. Public opinion changes and it's not heading in the Israelis favor. And It can certainly be debated if Gaza is a colony ,but Gaza sure seems to have some aspects of a lot of other colonies.

 

[finesse]

A leadership dedicated to the best interests of the people not included.

 

[Paine]

A leadership dedicated to the best interests of the people not included.

Remind me what happened to the PLO?

 

[finesse]

Remind me what happened to the PLO?

Relevance?

 

[Paine]

Relevance?

The Palestinians have had leadership in the past that was not an Islamist paramilitary. It has been the policy of Netanyahu and the Israeli government to marginalize the PLO at every opportunity while elevating Hamas.

Y’all might want to look into what Mandela said about Palestine if you think SA isn’t an apt comparison.

 

[finesse]

The distinctions I'm seeing are not the philosophical one but the pragmatic differences. Bottom line, nobody with any real power actually stands behind the Palestinians. A hell of a lot of them were forced to stay in the first place to create an embarrassment for Israel. They've been the redheaded stepchild to the rest or the world since.

Wake me up when any new country or multinational company enacts an embargo on Israel.

I doubt if you want us to sever our ties with Israel any more than I do. Otoh, I'm old enough to look at the NY Times poll posted this morning on the Political Poll thread, see that this situation is bottom on the list in the average American's concern, drawing less than 1% or peoples concern, and understand that it's going to take a long time for that to happen. It's damned sure not happening this close to an election. That's called realpolitik.

 

[Paine]

The distinctions I'm seeing are not the philosophical one but the pragmatic differences. Bottom line, nobody with any real power actually stands behind the Palestinians. A hell of a lot of them were forced to stay in the first place to create an embarrassment for Israel. They've been the redheaded stepchild to the rest or the world since.

Wake me up when any new country or multinational company enacts an embargo on Israel.

I doubt if you want us to sever our ties with Israel any more than I do. Otoh, I'm old enough to look at the NY Times poll posted this morning on the Political Poll thread, see that this situation is bottom on the list in the average American's concern, drawing less than 1% or peoples concern, and understand that it's going to take a long time for that to happen. It's damned sure not happening this close to an election. That's called realpolitik.

I mean, the whole point of the discussion and protests is to move the needle to a place where a multinational corporation or country would take some kind of embargo action against Israel.

Americans never really care about foreign policy as an election issue, especially not one than isn’t really directly affecting most Americans right now. These things happen in small increments, and the conversation around Israel has changed since 10/7, IMO.

The Zionist project is not long for this world. Public opinion is turning against Israel. If they continue down the current path, I can’t see support for them increasing. It scares me because it probably won’t end peacefully. But at least it will finally end.

 

[KishiKaisei]

She’s been a Russian asset for a long time.

 

[finesse]

You just need to figure that this situation is about 3 decades behind the point SA was before apartheid ended. I think you're right that it's time and past time but there are a lot more hidden currents, especially in the West, than there were concerning SA.

 

[gtyellowjacket]

A leadership dedicated to the best interests of the people not included.

I think you're forgetting the leadership of a lot of post-colonial countries. For The citizens of plenty of those countries, it wasn't all hunky-dory once they kicked the occupiers out. It could be really good for the people that ended up on top though.

 

[Paine]

You just need to figure that this situation is about 3 decades behind the point SA was before apartheid ended. I think you're right that it's time and past time but there are a lot more hidden currents, especially in the West, than there were concerning SA.

Oh, I agree. South Africa was a much more cut and dried example for Americans, having just gone through something very similar ourselves. Like you said, it it’s doubtful that anything good will happen in the next month. If anything, Netanyahu will continue to escalate to make Biden/Harris look bad.

 

[Centerpiece]

Do you think any other nation or president, etc. can effect real change in that region? The battle lines and animosity were drawn decades ago, even centuries ago. Eisenhower, Kennedy, Nixon, Carter, Reagan, Clinton, Bush, O'Bama, Trump, Biden, Harris - they can all send money/weapons - or NOT send any money or weapons - to either side. The divisions and animosity will continue in that region. IMHO, to hold VP Harris as some how "responsible" for that fire drill over there is disingenuous at best if not literally laughable. Carter came the closest to creating "some" real change at Camp David in the 1970's.

Also, what exactly is the motivation behind the woman in the video/Stein/Green Party to sabotage Harris? Why would they want trump in the oval office? Specifics please - anybody?

 

[Paine]

Do you think any other nation or president, etc. can effect real change in that region? The battle lines and animosity were drawn decades ago, even centuries ago. Eisenhower, Kennedy, Nixon, Carter, Reagan, Clinton, Bush, O'Bama, Trump, Biden, Harris - they can all send money/weapons - or NOT send any money or weapons - to either side. The divisions and animosity will continue in that region. IMHO, to hold VP Harris as some how "responsible" for that fire drill over there is disingenuous at best if not literally laughable. Carter came the closest to creating "some" real change at Camp David in the 1970's.

Also, what exactly is the motivation behind the woman in the video/Stein/Green Party to sabotage Harris? Why would they want trump in the oval office? Specifics please - anybody?

I do think that the president of the most powerful country to ever exist can affect change in the region. It starts with cutting off offensive weapons to Israel as long as they are using them to violate international and U.S. law. You can’t do anything else without starting there.