Gun Control & Gun Rights Catch-All Thread

[NYCBlueBlood]

Gangs are not shunned. You have people making tens of millions of dollars singing or rapping about murdering people and dealing drugs. If someone makes a song about being a Crip and shooting Bloods, they need to be canceled the same way someone would be if they boasted about being a racist or a Nazi.

Not sure this is the right first post, but I'll start by taking my side convo with Bo off the mass shootings thread.

The idea that a few white guys in the music industry have found a way to make millions off of one of the few marketable things coming out of black projects is not evidence that gangs are not shunned. Are there white suburban kids out there listening to their music? Sure. But this is not creating an escape path from the projects for more than a tiny fraction of the population that has been shut aside in projects to rot and die.

That's like saying that because Obama became President, there is no longer racism against blacks in the US. Just because a few people escape the projects via music or basketball, it does not change the fact that 99.9% of the people born to the projects are trapped there... with gangs seemingly the only avenue for advancement for young kids.

Trying this again. I posted one, saw somebody else had started one, so deleted mine... I think the other thread starter did the same...

 

[Kraftyheel89]

You need to sharpen up your Bo strategy and fixation on one minute detail in the whole scheme of things. It is 99.99% not 99.9%.

You can do better.

 

[ChileG]

Shotguns for home protection and hunting rifles for hunting. No automatic weapons or handguns.
Cannot leave home with your gun unless you are headed to go hunting or hunting and you must have a hunting license on you at the time of transport.
Violators will be assumed to be dangerous and dealt with accordingly by law enforcement and the legal system.

 

[ChileG]

Not sure this is the right first post, but I'll start by taking my side convo with Bo off the mass shootings thread.

The idea that a few white guys in the music industry have found a way to make millions off of one of the few marketable things coming out of black projects is not evidence that gangs are not shunned. Are there white suburban kids out there listening to their music? Sure. But this is not creating an escape path from the projects for more than a tiny fraction of the population that has been shut aside in projects to rot and die.

That's like saying that because Obama became President, there is no longer racism against blacks in the US. Just because a few people escape the projects via music or basketball, it does not change the fact that 99.9% of the people born to the projects are trapped there... with gangs seemingly the only avenue for advancement for young kids.

Trying this again. I posted one, saw somebody else had started one, so deleted mine... I think the other thread starter did the same...

I did, lol

 

[NYCBlueBlood]

I'd also like to address the idea that Bo keeps hinting at, that these mass shootings are not a big deal because so few happen as a percentage of gun owners... and how they get far more attention as compared to the number of kids getting killed in gun violence due to gang activity.

Here's the thing. Acts of terror have an outsized impact on the human mind. People can avoid going to gang controlled neighborhoods. People cannot avoid sending their kids to school.

I wonder if Bo thinks 9/11 was overreacted to because less than 3k people died at the WTC? It's such a tiny percent of people who work in high rise NYC buildings. Why would we change anything when such a small percent of people were impacted?

Gang violence can be avoided if you do not go into gang controlled neighborhoods. There is nothing you can do to avoid school shootings... other than hope your family is not one of the unlucky ones. Or, of course, find ways to keep guns out of the hands of the people committing them... but that's just crazy talk.

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

Edited. Thank you!

 

[Calheel]

I'd also like to address the idea that Bo keeps hinting at, that these mass shootings are not a big deal because so few happen as a percentage of gun owners... and how they get far more attention as compared to the number of kids getting killed in gun violence due to gang activity.

Here's the thing. Acts of terror have an outsized impact on the human mind. People can avoid going to gang controlled neighborhoods. People cannot avoid sending their kids to school.

I wonder if Bo thinks 9/11 was overreacted to because less than 3k people died at the WTC? It's such a tiny percent of people who work in high rise NYC buildings. Why would we change anything when such a small percent of people were impacted?

Gang violence can be avoided if you do not go into gang controlled neighborhoods. There is nothing you can do to avoid school shootings... other than hope your family is not one of the unlucky ones. Or, of course, find ways to keep guns out of the hands of the people committing them... but that's just crazy talk.

To your last point, the randomness is definitely scary. But it is very much a societal and personal decision to fear random mass casualty events.

Inevitably, any discussion of this point will be misconstrued by most on the board as not caring about mass shootings or being willing to tolerate such atrocities. That is not what I am saying at all. The point I was trying to make and still hope it sinks in with a few people is that personally fearing a mass shooting is not healthy or rational.

Likewise, personally fearing being a victim of terrorism is not healthy or rational.

These are such incredibly rare events. It is simply that our reptilian brain is not well suited to matching fear and anxiety with actual risks. Anything that is sensationalized in the media becomes personal to us. Since we can’t really prepare for the randomness of it, there is a tendency to have a heightened baseline anxiety — an anxiety that gets worse every time there is a terrorist incident or mass shooting.

Given the current political and legal climate, there is not much that can practically be done to stop mass shootings in this country. It will take many years, if ever, for the US to get on par with its European peers on this issue. In the meantime, it does little good to personally fear being the victim of such atrocities.

 

[Enigma94]

There was a school shooting at a high school in my area a few years ago. The number of kids that actually saw and heard the shooting was probably only like a few dozen or so. But the kids all throughout my area were legitimately scared and worried about the safety of their classrooms since it hit so close to home. Now we can just tell them not to worry about it because statistically they are extremely unlikely to ever get shot, but somehow I don't think that's going to work.

 

[HeelInTheOzarks]

There was a school shooting at a high school in my area a few years ago. The number of kids that actually saw and heard the shooting was probably only like a few dozen or so. But the kids all throughout my area were legitimately scared and worried about the safety of their classrooms since it hit so close to home. Now we can just tell them not to worry about it because statistically they are extremely unlikely to ever get shot, but somehow I don't think that's going to work.

I learned in the other thread that we should have not said anything and let the day carry on and then no one would have been traumatized.

 

[Calheel]

There was a school shooting at a high school in my area a few years ago. The number of kids that actually saw and heard the shooting was probably only like a few dozen or so. But the kids all throughout my area were legitimately scared and worried about the safety of their classrooms since it hit so close to home. Now we can just tell them not to worry about it because statistically they are extremely unlikely to ever get shot, but somehow I don't think that's going to work.

PTSD is real and requires potentially lifetime therapy. Hopefully, those kids parents and the schools are getting the kids appropriate medical treatment.

But there is a world of difference between post and pre trauma stress disorder. One is a legitimate response of the human brain to trauma. The other is the result of our brains not being able to process risk accurately.

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

Not sure this is the right first post, but I'll start by taking my side convo with Bo off the mass shootings thread.

The idea that a few white guys in the music industry have found a way to make millions off of one of the few marketable things coming out of black projects is not evidence that gangs are not shunned. Are there white suburban kids out there listening to their music? Sure. But this is not creating an escape path from the projects for more than a tiny fraction of the population that has been shut aside in projects to rot and die.

That's like saying that because Obama became President, there is no longer racism against blacks in the US. Just because a few people escape the projects via music or basketball, it does not change the fact that 99.9% of the people born to the projects are trapped there... with gangs seemingly the only avenue for advancement for young kids.

Trying this again. I posted one, saw somebody else had started one, so deleted mine... I think the other thread starter did the same...

This is definitely getting sidetracked here but my idea was trying to find a solution to the problem of the significantly higher rate of gun crime affecting
Black youth. Even controlling for factors like poverty, Black children are much more likely to be involved in gun violence than any other demographic group in the United States. So what's the solution? By banning AR-15s you may save 3-5 White kids per year while doing nothing to save 500 Black kids.

This is not purely a poverty issue-

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

Shotguns for home protection and hunting rifles for hunting. No automatic weapons or handguns.
Cannot leave home with your gun unless you are headed to go hunting or hunting and you must have a hunting license on you at the time of transport.
Violators will be assumed to be dangerous and dealt with accordingly by law enforcement and the legal system.

I don't support this as handguns are an excellent home defense tool and can be stored safely so that minors or others cannot access them. Moreover, I am not a fan of open carry have no issue with concealed carry. CCW permit holders in most states have jumped through all of the hoops that gun-control advocates want them to jump through and they are underrepresented amongst people who commit gun crime.

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

I'd also like to address the idea that Bo keeps hinting at, that these mass shootings are not a big deal because so few happen as a percentage of gun owners... and how they get far more attention as compared to the number of kids getting killed in gun violence due to gang activity.

Here's the thing. Acts of terror have an outsized impact on the human mind. People can avoid going to gang controlled neighborhoods. People cannot avoid sending their kids to school.

I wonder if Bo thinks 9/11 was overreacted to because less than 3k people died at the WTC? It's such a tiny percent of people who work in high rise NYC buildings. Why would we change anything when such a small percent of people were impacted?

Gang violence can be avoided if you do not go into gang controlled neighborhoods. There is nothing you can do to avoid school shootings... other than hope your family is not one of the unlucky ones. Or, of course, find ways to keep guns out of the hands of the people committing them... but that's just crazy talk.

I'd argue that the bolded portion is a comment that only privileged people can make. You can't avoid gang violence if you are stuck in a gang controlled neighborhood because you can't afford to live anywhere else.

And you are misunderstanding my post on the previous thread. I wasn't arguing that school shootings "aren't a big deal." I was replying to another poster who was engaging in hyperbole suggesting that his kids probably wouldn't survive 8 years in school. The statistics simply don't support such a statement. To borrow on your 9/11 analogy, it would be akin to a worker at Staples in Des Moines, Iowa complaining that he was afraid of being jihaded at work on 9/12.

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

I learned in the other thread that we should have not said anything and let the day carry on and then no one would have been traumatized.

Better than simply screaming at kids that they are going to die all the time.

 

[Calheel]

I learned in the other thread that we should have not said anything and let the day carry on and then no one would have been traumatized.

There is a legitimate discussion to be had about whether our response to shootings exacerbates trauma.

For example, after the kid shot his professor at UNC last year. The entire school locked down. There were a lot of traumatized texts between kids and parents that day. Maybe that was the right response by the university. I could be convinced that better safe than sorry is the right approach.

But then a week later when a guy from Durham pulled up his shirt to reveal a gun while arguing with the cashier at the student union, the entire campus locked down again. That seemed to be a pretty clear overreaction by UNC. But unfortunately, the pressure is on administrators to be overly cautious in those situations.

 

[NYCBlueBlood]

To your last point, the randomness is definitely scary. But it is very much a societal and personal decision to fear random mass casualty events.

Inevitably, any discussion of this point will be misconstrued by most on the board as not caring about mass shootings or being willing to tolerate such atrocities. That is not what I am saying at all. The point I was trying to make and still hope it sinks in with a few people is that personally fearing a mass shooting is not healthy or rational.

Likewise, personally fearing being a victim of terrorism is not healthy or rational.

These are such incredibly rare events. It is simply that our reptilian brain is not well suited to matching fear and anxiety with actual risks. Anything that is sensationalized in the media becomes personal to us. Since we can’t really prepare for the randomness of it, there is a tendency to have a heightened baseline anxiety — an anxiety that gets worse every time there is a terrorist incident or mass shooting.

Given the current political and legal climate, there is not much that can practically be done to stop mass shootings in this country. It will take many years, if ever, for the US to get on par with its European peers on this issue. In the meantime, it does little good to personally fear being the victim of such atrocities.

I hear you. I understand the point you are making. But you can't tell people they should just ignore the millions of years of human instinct that went into wiring our brains this way. You're never going to convince people that if you ignore the terrorists, they will go away... we just aren't built to do that on a societal level.

Just as the government knew after 9/11 that the only way to get people flying again was to impose draconian searches on every person getting on a plane to convince people 9/11 could not happen again... the only way to convince people to stop worrying about school shootings is to convince them the people doing it cannot get their hands on guns.

As long as we as a US society continue to A) make people dealing with mental illness feel like they are broken and alone; and B) allow guns to be freely available to anybody who wants one... there is no stopping school shootings, and there is no stopping the phobic reaction to guns many Americans will have as a result.

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

I hear you. I understand the point you are making. But you can't tell people they should just ignore the millions of years of human instinct that went into wiring our brains this way. You're never going to convince people that if you ignore the terrorists, they will go away... we just aren't built to do that on a societal level.

Just as the government knew after 9/11 that the only way to get people flying again was to impose draconian searches on every person getting on a plane to convince people 9/11 could not happen again... the only way to convince people to stop worrying about school shootings is to convince them the people doing it cannot get their hands on guns.

As long as we as a US society continue to A) make people dealing with mental illness feel like they are broken and alone; and B) allow guns to be freely available to anybody who wants one... there is no stopping school shootings, and there is no stopping the phobic reaction to guns many Americans will have as a result.

This is never going to happen. There are over 400 million guns in this country. And as I stated earlier, our hyperfixation on rare but horrific mass shootings at high schools simply ignores the hundreds of deaths experienced by young Black Americans. How many Black kids would an AR ban save? Hardly any.

 

[Calheel]

I hear you. I understand the point you are making. But you can't tell people they should just ignore the millions of years of human instinct that went into wiring our brains this way. You're never going to convince people that if you ignore the terrorists, they will go away... we just aren't built to do that on a societal level.

Just as the government knew after 9/11 that the only way to get people flying again was to impose draconian searches on every person getting on a plane to convince people 9/11 could not happen again... the only way to convince people to stop worrying about school shootings is to convince them the people doing it cannot get their hands on guns.

As long as we as a US society continue to A) make people dealing with mental illness feel like they are broken and alone; and B) allow guns to be freely available to anybody who wants one... there is no stopping school shootings, and there is no stopping the phobic reaction to guns many Americans will have as a result.

You are right. It is very difficult for people to rewire their brain.

That said, it is possible to work on that. The brain is malleable and there are techniques to deal with fear.

Given that these kind of events will be with us our entire lives (for the reasons discussed in your post and mine) it is worth working on our instinctual fear reactions and attempting to align fear with the real risks we personally face.

 

[finesse]

This is never going to happen. There are over 400 million guns in this country. And as I stated earlier, our hyperfixation on rare but horrific mass shootings at high schools simply ignores the hundreds of deaths experienced by young Black Americans. How many Black kids would an AR ban save? Hardly any.

While I don't see much use in the ban, I highly object to the use of rare with this rate of increase in since 1970.

• Incidence of school shootings increasing dramatically: In the 53 years leading up to May 2022, the number of school shootings annually increased more than 12 times.
• Children more likely to be victims. The likelihood of children being school shooting victims has increased more than fourfold, and the rate of death from school shootings has risen more than sixfold.

It also seems at the very least misguided to equate school shootings and gun violence in the inner cities.

 

[HeelInTheOzarks]

There is a legitimate discussion to be had about whether our response to shootings exacerbates trauma.

For example, after the kid shot his professor at UNC last year. The entire school locked down. There were a lot of traumatized texts between kids and parents that day. Maybe that was the right response by the university. I could be convinced that better safe than sorry is the right approach.

But then a week later when a guy from Durham pulled up his shirt to reveal a gun while arguing with the cashier at the student union, the entire campus locked down again. That seemed to be a pretty clear overreaction by UNC. But unfortunately, the pressure is on administrators to be overly cautious in those situations.

I think there is a big difference between a college campus and a k12 school where everyone might be inside the same single building. In that case I don’t see any reason not to evacuate or at least notify everyone so measures can be taken.