Hot Stove: UNC Basketball

Centerpiece said:
Regarding those who've left or may leave via portal... do you really care to follow them at their new destination? Did anyone follow Arizona the past 2 years? Did anyone swoon for Trez and State? If (big if) Cadeau lands at d00k (or another rival school), are their any Tar Heel fans on this board going to root for Elliot to have a great season and to follow his stats and see how he does? You know, "once a Tar Heel, always a Tar Heel" sort of thing...

Or, are you going to be of a mind: "See, Caleb doing Caleb things; 3-20 and shot his team out of a game again!" Or: "Screw Trez and lolstate - he's a tool and a traitor for going to that cow college!"

Or maybe, just maybe: "meh, who cares? They're gone and forgotten"
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I'm pretty much option #3. I only have so much brain matter left. I generally try to focus on the task at hand and not sweat the past.
 
I do agree with a couple things cjones posted. The lack of player development is a concern. Now, I'm very reluctant to criticize the staff, but I think this is a valid point. Don't think any of our current coaches stand out as a player development expert.

The concern about losing EC is the ripple effect on future recruiting. Having a 5star player transfer out brings up all sort of doubt.
 
rodoheel said:
Well, sure, but that's sort of underselling how hard it is to bring in "5 portal studs" (both in terms of identifying the right talent and in actually getting them). I agree with you that a wait and see approach is right, but it's also fair to have some skepticism about our staff's ability to evaluate the right fits in the portal, and then close on them, after what happened last season.
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We have a lot more money. A GM and a player personnel guy. We have the experience of last year and are a little more knowledge because of that. And we’ve been pretty good in the portal half the time. Also, the entire staff knows their career is dependent on nailing the portal over the next two months.

None of that guarantees 5 portal studs. But there is reason to think that it will be better than last year.
 
Carolina Fever said:
They need the same things as the pros. Contracts, salary caps and collective bargaining.
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Collective bargaining is going to be really hard with both (1) way more players than the NBA, and (2) the transitory nature of college athletes in general (meaning that no one is there permanently). I think that probably only works if you essentially make the top 50-60 programs or so their own division and do it for them. Otherwise imagine trying to do a collective bargaining agreement that covers both SEC programs with massive budgets and, like, the Ivy League and other tiny conferences where the schools have no money. it would be really difficult to conceive of.

While we do need contracts between schools and players (the schools need to just sack up, make them employees, and take the burdens that come with that - it's long overdue, and the reason we have the NIL wild west in the first place is because schools simply refuse to do this). But I personally would rather we not introduce salary caps into college sports. As American sports fans we're conditioned to believe that such things are necessary for "competitive balance" but (1) they're really not, and (2) college sports have never had anything approaching collective balance anyway so I'm not convinced that trying to impose it by rule is really a good or necessary thing for college sports.
 
Calheel said:
We have a lot more money. A GM and a player personnel guy. We have the experience of last year and are a little more knowledge because of that. And we’ve been pretty good in the portal half the time. Also, the entire staff knows their career is dependent on nailing the portal over the next two months.

None of that guarantees 5 portal studs. But there is reason to think that it will be better than last year.
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I'm not convinced that we actually have "a lot more money" (or if we do it's because everyone has a lot more money). Just like I'm not convinced that on the football side, we actually have a big fat wallet to spend. Simply because someone says that, doesn't make it true. We're not the only program realizing it has to step up to compete in this new NIL world. If we make a bigger commitment but so do 25 of our closest competitors, the net result isn't that we actually gained any kind of competitive advantage.

And in any event, even if we do have more money and a GM and learned our lessons from last year, I would say that is reason to hope it will be better next year, not reason to think it will be better next year. You can have all the money in the world and it doesn't matter if you end up with a roster that doesn't fit with each other and doesn't fit with what the coach is trying to do. We now have four years of experience with HD and I think there are real reasons to doubt whether he and his staff are good, much less nationally elite, with respect to identifying talent/fit and then adapting the approach to the talent we do have. We've started slowly basically every season Hubert has been here, and frequently underwhelmed compared to preseason expectations, so I think a healthy dose of "I'll believe it when I see it" is appropriate here. Having a GM should help, but Tanner is new to his role, so there could be some growing pains.

I will freely admit that I'm somewhat of a skeptic by nature - I would rather have my expectations low and be pleasantly surprised, then have them high and be disappointed - but I think any neutral observer would acknowledge that skepticism is warranted at this point.
 
rodoheel said:
I'm not convinced that we actually have "a lot more money" (or if we do it's because everyone has a lot more money). Just like I'm not convinced that on the football side, we actually have a big fat wallet to spend. Simply because someone says that, doesn't make it true. We're not the only program realizing it has to step up to compete in this new NIL world. If we make a bigger commitment but so do 25 of our closest competitors, the net result isn't that we actually gained any kind of competitive advantage.

And in any event, even if we do have more money and a GM and learned our lessons from last year, I would say that is reason to hope it will be better next year, not reason to think it will be better next year. You can have all the money in the world and it doesn't matter if you end up with a roster that doesn't fit with each other and doesn't fit with what the coach is trying to do. We now have four years of experience with HD and I think there are real reasons to doubt whether he and his staff are good, much less nationally elite, with respect to identifying talent/fit and then adapting the approach to the talent we do have. We've started slowly basically every season Hubert has been here, and frequently underwhelmed compared to preseason expectations, so I think a healthy dose of "I'll believe it when I see it" is appropriate here. Having a GM should help, but Tanner is new to his role, so there could be some growing pains.

I will freely admit that I'm somewhat of a skeptic by nature - I would rather have my expectations low and be pleasantly surprised, then have them high and be disappointed - but I think any neutral observer would acknowledge that skepticism is warranted at this point.
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Skepticism is reasonable. Just pointing out that important changes have been made in the talent acquisition operations. All your criticisms of the current staff are valid and there is no guaranty this year will be better. And in some ways, Hubert’s underperformance and hot seat status may make it harder to get talent this year.

But the good news is that we will know one way or the other pretty soon. The stove is hot for a limited period of time.
 
Huh? said:
It's a sad day when a program as storied as Carolina basketball has to hang its hat on schadenfreude for its rival based on something that happened three years ago.
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There's nothing sad about acknowledging the singular nature of beating K in his last game in Cameron, as an underdog, when he was surrounded by his sycophants.

There's nothing sad about appreciating a former player's cold-blooded murder of K in the only meeting between the teams in the history of the NCAA tourney.

These are perpetual gold and worth celebrating on every topic on this forum, no matter what's happening elsewhere in the world.
 
CRHeel94 said:
I do agree with a couple things cjones posted. The lack of player development is a concern. Now, I'm very reluctant to criticize the staff, but I think this is a valid point. Don't think any of our current coaches stand out as a player development expert.

The concern about losing EC is the ripple effect on future recruiting. Having a 5star player transfer out brings up all sort of doubt.
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That's my concern as well. Doesn't really instill confidence in the program and coaching if he is leaving and it's not because he is getting more money to play elsewhere, or they already have a better PG coming in that could take his starting spot.
 
Carolina Fever said:
That's my concern as well. Doesn't really instill confidence in the program and coaching if he is leaving and it's not because he is getting more money to play elsewhere, or they already have a better PG coming in that could take his starting spot.
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A lot of fans have been very loud in their criticism of EC, don't forget to factor that in.
 
Calheel said:
Skepticism is reasonable. Just pointing out that important changes have been made in the talent acquisition operations. All your criticisms of the current staff are valid and there is no guaranty this year will be better. And in some ways, Hubert’s underperformance and hot seat status may make it harder to get talent this year.

But the good news is that we will know one way or the other pretty soon. The stove is hot for a limited period of time.
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All fair. (Though we won't really "know" until next season starts; as I said talent acquisition is only part of the issue, we have to actually come out and play well, especially given how important our non-conference schedule is with the ACC dissolving before our eyes.)
 
CRHeel94 said:
I do agree with a couple things cjones posted. The lack of player development is a concern. Now, I'm very reluctant to criticize the staff, but I think this is a valid point. Don't think any of our current coaches stand out as a player development expert.

The concern about losing EC is the ripple effect on future recruiting. Having a 5star player transfer out brings up all sort of doubt.
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Valid point on the first paragraph. I’m looking for a staff shakeup among the assistants. From what I’ve seen, I’d keep Lebo and maybe Paige, that’s it.

Regarding 5 stars transferring out, that fear is a relic of the old world IMO. They do it all the time now, from top programs, and nobody cares or even seems to notice.

And besides, 3-4 stars with grit and toughness are what this program needs to build a new foundation anyway. A soft 5 star without that can see himself out the door for all I care. The much bigger need IMO is a staff that can identify those dogs and establish the pipeline and resources to land them. Regardless of how many stars they have next to their names.
 
Carolina Fever said:
And the message it's sending isn't good, either. If it's not about getting more money elsewhere, and it's not because he knows they are bringing in a better PG and he might not start, then he would be leaving just because he isn't happy playing there and doesn't like the program/coaching.
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Or he was moved out by HD and staff.
 
CRHeel94 said:
I do agree with a couple things cjones posted. The lack of player development is a concern. Now, I'm very reluctant to criticize the staff, but I think this is a valid point. Don't think any of our current coaches stand out as a player development expert.

The concern about losing EC is the ripple effect on future recruiting. Having a 5star player transfer out brings up all sort of doubt.
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I brought this up before, when folks pointed to NIL as being the reason for not landing a 5 through the portal. Players look at programs/coaches and see how they've developed their players, helped to get to the pros, how they are doing in the pros, etc., when deciding on which school to commit to. Who/what does UNC/HD/staff have to point to as a highlight of their ability to develop their players and set them up for long-term success in the pros?

While NIL might be a factor for some (though we've seen it confirmed that UNC outbid several schools who they lost out to in bringing a player in), it's not nearly as important as lack of development and, at least for the bigs, HD's offensive philosophy.
 
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