Hot Stove: UNC Basketball

[superrific]

Blaming the players, on a mass scale, only works if you think that the vast majority of D1 players aren't working as hard on their own development as D1 players did 10-40 years ago.

That seems a "things were better in the good ol' days" take on the situation with no real basis in reality.

You can question how well player development works in the modern era of college basketball. You can question how well team goals and player goals align in the modern era. But is seems quite the assumption - without any evidence provided - to believe that players, with all of the resources available to them, are systematically not working as hard as players did in the past.

1. I didn't say anything about the vast majority of players. I just said that sometimes "I need to be developed better" is probably an excuse.
2. The reason I think it's an excuse is that it's the exact same sort of excuse that people make all the time. Talk to high schoolers about their grades and you'll find it's usually someone else's fault. For instance, if EC was really working on his shot but not in game-ready situations, then he was not doing what he needed to do. Put that in the context of his parting comments.
3. In the days before unlimited transfers, a player's choices were a) work harder or b) resign oneself to the bench. Plenty of players did b). We've had some in the program. Those are players who never get to the NBA.

All I'm saying is that the portal provides ready access for "grass is greener" thinking and allows players who aren't yet ready to own up to their weaknesses to avoid doing so. I have no idea whether the incidence of that is greater or lower than in the past.

 

[finesse]

I hope it comes sooner than later. The way the players are allowed to transfer every year without any penalty is killing things and making it harder for fans to enjoy the college game. One thing that was always special about Carolina is it always felt like a family, and the guys that used to play coming back to play against the current players in the summer. That's going to go away if half the team is transferring after every season.

I said I thought it would take 5 years to shake out two years ago.

 

[TarSpiel]

I hope it comes sooner than later. The way the players are allowed to transfer every year without any penalty is killing things and making it harder for fans to enjoy the college game. One thing that was always special about Carolina is it always felt like a family, and the guys that used to play coming back to play against the current players in the summer. That's going to go away if half the team is transferring after every season.

I for one am looking forward to hearing pickup game reports featuring Pete Nance, Dawson Garcia, and Tyler Nickel.

 

[SnoopRob]

I hope it comes sooner than later. The way the players are allowed to transfer every year without any penalty is killing things and making it harder for fans to enjoy the college game. One thing that was always special about Carolina is it always felt like a family, and the guys that used to play coming back to play against the current players in the summer. That's going to go away if half the team is transferring after every season.

The good news is that I think a lot of folks recognize that the current chaos is troublesome. But I think there are still major obstacles to an actual solution.

The biggest one is that is almost a necessity to have some sort of union for players for collective bargaining to occur. But it's going to be hard for a union where the members turn over every 4-5 years to come together and work on big picture issues with players that are inherently temporary.

Another huge issue is going to be "how much of the funds generated go to the players which generate them"? In the NFL or NBA, those are discrete organizations centered around 1 sport where revenue recognition, while complicated, is at least reasonably able to be determined to be shared. It will be much more difficult to determine those numbers with any consensus for college football vs. men's college basketball vs other sports. Beyond that, are all college athletes part of one union or does each sport (maybe even broken down between men and women's team) have their own union? Because if all college athletes are part of one union, you can bet that football and men's basketball players - the folks whose sports generate the vast majority of revenue - won't get a share they're happy with. And if each sport has their own union, the NCAA (and the constituent universities which make up the NCAA) are going to have to figure out how to split revenue among the football and men's basketball players who generate the majority of the revenue and the other sports which require a significant chunk of that revenue to exist.

I could go on, but I imagine that covers enough to illustrate how many obstacles remain.

In short, the current NCAA model is built on a form of revenue generation and sharing that is likely unsustainable in the future and there will be a lot more chaos before we get to a real, sustainable solution.

 

[SnoopRob]

1. I didn't say anything about the vast majority of players. I just said that sometimes "I need to be developed better" is probably an excuse.
2. The reason I think it's an excuse is that it's the exact same sort of excuse that people make all the time. Talk to high schoolers about their grades and you'll find it's usually someone else's fault. For instance, if EC was really working on his shot but not in game-ready situations, then he was not doing what he needed to do. Put that in the context of his parting comments.
3. In the days before unlimited transfers, a player's choices were a) work harder or b) resign oneself to the bench. Plenty of players did b). We've had some in the program. Those are players who never get to the NBA.

All I'm saying is that the portal provides ready access for "grass is greener" thinking and allows players who aren't yet ready to own up to their weaknesses to avoid doing so. I have no idea whether the incidence of that is greater or lower than in the past.

TarSpiel's post implies that a significant number of players are using "development" as an excuse for leaving their current schools. (If only a few players were saying it, he wouldn't be sick of hearing it.)

Your post suggests that "lack of development" is really a cover for players not working hard enough individually to develop their games.

From there, we have a necessary logical conclusion that lots of players citing "development" as their reason for transferring + "lack of development" actually being a cover for players not working hard enough to develop = lots of current players aren't working hard enough to develop and then blaming their coaching staff.

I agree that the portal provides much easier access for players who aren't seeing the outcomes they want at their current schools a chance to look elsewhere for other opportunities. That seems completely obvious based on a simple look at CBB now versus 10 years ago.

But none of that actually provides any insight to whether players not developing is actually the fault of the players and blaming the coaches is merely a cover, which is the idea I disagree with.

 

[duluoz]

If he really showed Cadeau the door before having a better PG to take his place, though, that's pretty dumb.

Strongly disagree. I’ve questioned Cadeau’s attitude and integrity for a long time, but gave him the benefit of the doubt in year 1. In year 2, it became pretty clear to me that he was only getting worse, and not going to grow out of it. HD was more privy to that perspective than anyone on this board or anywhere. And he’s a man of unassailable integrity, and I’d bet that’s what guided his decision, if he did show EC the door.

That’s much bigger than “not having someone better” lined up. That’s what many of you are failing to understand. So even if it costs HD his job, he’ll still stand by his decision and others like it. Anyone who wants to talk about The Carolina Way, there it is.

 

[UNCatTech]

I think a lot of folks recognize that the current chaos is troublesome. But I think there are still major obstacles to an actual solution.

You could make this same statement on any of the Trump policy threads.

 

[cscott]

Strongly disagree. I’ve questioned Cadeau’s attitude and integrity for a long time, but gave him the benefit of the doubt in year 1. In year 2, it became pretty clear to me that he was only getting worse, and not going to grow out of it. HD was more privy to that perspective than anyone on this board or anywhere. And he’s a man of unassailable integrity, and I’d bet that’s what guided his decision, if he did show EC the door.

That’s much bigger than “not having someone better” lined up. That’s what many of you are failing to understand. So even if it costs HD his job, he’ll still stand by his decision and others like it. Anyone who wants to talk about The Carolina Way, there it is.

No one would talk about the Carolina Way if they didn't win, too.

 

[finesse]

No one would talk about the Carolina Way if they didn't win, too.

From a historical perspective, winning was a result and not the goal. Recall that DES took over a program on probation where virtually everything than win at any cost had a larger priority.

 

[cscott]

From a historical perspective, winning was a result and not the goal. Recall that DES took over a program on probation where virtually everything than win at any cost had a larger priority.

And still, if he hadn't been successful doing it that way, no one would have talked about the Carolina Way. Never said it wasn't possible. But from a logical standpoint, getting rid of your starting PG without having someone as good or better coming in talent wise is not a good idea.

 

[TarSpiel]

No one would talk about the Carolina Way if they didn't win, too.

That's probably true, but it brings up an interesting question. Do you think that for the head coach of UNC winning should be the most important goal they have in their job?

 

[cscott]

Trimble makes it official.

Seth Trimble Returning to UNC for Senior Season

The three-year UNC guard was third on the team in scoring and second in rebounding.

247sports.com

 

[SnoopRob]

From a historical perspective, winning was a result and not the goal. Recall that DES took over a program on probation where virtually everything than win at any cost had a larger priority.

Success on the court is a foundational part of the Carolina Way. Dean Smith was as competitive as anyone else in college basketball and he wanted to win as much as anyone else (albeit with moral integrity).

You can't speak of The Carolina Way without speaking of on-court success.

 

[cscott]

That's probably true, but it brings up an interesting question. Do you think that for the head coach of UNC winning should be the most important goal they have in their job?

No, but a good enough coach should be able to handle both.

 

[SnoopRob]

That's probably true, but it brings up an interesting question. Do you think that for the head coach of UNC winning should be the most important goal they have in their job?

Saying winning is "the most important goal" sets up a false conundrum where winning must come at the expense of other things.

For the HC of Carolina Basketball, winning at a high level should be one of the primary expectations of the job (along with high moral/ethical standards, the professional/personal development of players, and the maintenance of the program as a source of pride for the university on and off the court) and meeting all of those primary expectations are essential parts of the job.

 

[finesse]

Success on the court is a foundational part of the Carolina Way. Dean Smith was as competitive as anyone else in college basketball and he wanted to win as much as anyone else (albeit with moral integrity).

You can't speak of The Carolina Way without speaking of on-court success.

Oh, I wasn't trying to start an argument. I just thought it was worth pointing out that it was a system started with different expectations than probably any other D1 school. I don't think for a moment that is still viable but it doesn't hurt to acknowledge what was at the root of it all.

 

[SnoopRob]

Oh, I wasn't trying to start an argument. I just thought it was worth pointing out that it was a system started with different expectations than probably any other D1 school. I don't think for a moment that is still viable but it doesn't hurt to acknowledge what was at the root of it all.

This isn't really an argument to me, just a discussion.

I agree that Dean Smith was hired with a directive to improve the state of the program without a huge concern for winning. But the University didn't create The Carolina Way with the hire of Dean Smith, Dean Smith created The Carolina Way as the guiding principles/goals of the program once he was in the position of head coach.

Dean Smith certainly expected to win based on his actions as head coach as part of The Carolina Way.

 

[duluoz]

No one would talk about the Carolina Way if they didn't win, too.

True — some people value wins over integrity.

 

[BlooVooDoo]

Trimble makes it official.

Seth Trimble Returning to UNC for Senior Season

The three-year UNC guard was third on the team in scoring and second in rebounding.

247sports.com

 

[duluoz]

But from a logical standpoint, getting rid of your starting PG without having someone as good or better coming in talent wise is not a good idea.

Playing with only 4 guys when you have a 5th available is also not generally a good idea. But if you can’t tell by the music here, sometimes it’s the right thing to do.