Hot Stove: UNC Basketball

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SnoopRob said:
In my line of work, I pretty often end up reaching out to various stakeholders to get feedback on certain things my agency does or changes we're considering.

I'm always a little cynical when I hear a group of folks, especially high-profile folks, say "their voice isn't being heard". I'm not saying that there aren't times when that is true, but - in my experience - what is often meant is "they didn't do what I wanted". You can do a lot of research and spend a good deal of time listening - and hearing - various stakeholders, but then a decision has to be made and it's often impossible to make a decision that makes everyone happy. And a common complaint from those who do not get their way is that "their voice wasn't heard".

I do think that you have to do extra work with those who don't get their way to explain why a different choice than their preference was made and to bring them back into the fold, so to speak, but that's different than actually not hearing their perspective at all.
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1. Thats probably fair and it seems particularly fraught coming from unc basketball which has always seemed a little gatekeepy in their own right, but it does match up with other stories i’d heard about Roberts in completely different fields

Peppers49 said:
I can’t say I’m a Lee Roberts fan myself so understand the skepticism there.

The alums wanting their voice heard and (probably) favoring keeping the Dean Dome makes sense considering that’s where they played/coached. Personally I’m not convinced that’s the best decision for the program.
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2. I admit i’m coming from a completely negative view on Roberts for multiple reasons at this point and
3. I’m not sure he’s wrong on this one. It’s not what i “want” but that doesn’t mean it’s wrong to move it to Carolina North. I think this is a delicate time for UNC sports, particularly the 2 revenue ones and I’m not sure he’s the right person to lead us through even if he/they make the “correct” decisions
 
I wonder how long it would take to build a new arena. I think it would be cool if they tore down the Smith Center and built a new arena in the same space, and the basketball team could play a season in Carmichael if it only took a year to build a new arena.
 
C-Money said:
I wonder how long it would take to build a new arena. I think it would be cool if they tore down the Smith Center and built a new arena in the same space, and the basketball team could play a season in Carmichael if it only took a year to build a new arena.
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It takes a while. Two years would be incredibly fast and unlikely. Three to four is more likely.
 
GoHeelsweeeehoooo said:
Seems like the big issue is the dean dome is outdated and just renovating it would be prohibitedly expensive
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And the "life long ticket holders" would still have the desire to say they still had xyz seats And the entirety of the project is to rent suites to rich people-not have them keep their seats
 
uncjhodges said:
1. Thats probably fair and it seems particularly fraught coming from unc basketball which has always seemed a little gatekeepy in their own right, but it does match up with other stories i’d heard about Roberts in completely different fields
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To be fair, sometimes those overseeing these kinds of projects really don't listen to certain stakeholders, so it's hard to know the truth of the matter without having some insider knowledge.

I will say that I would find it an interesting choice to not do everything possible to involve the basketball alums into the decision-making process for a new/renovated arena, even if you didn't eventually go with their feedback. As a whole, they are often doing quite well financially and they are certainly folks with a platform to impact public opinion. As obvious as that is, I can't imagine that Roberts and Co. would screw the pooch really badly on such engagement with the basketball alums concerning a new/renovated arena.

GoHeelsweeeehoooo said:
Seems like the big issue is the dean dome is outdated and just renovating it would be prohibitedly expensive
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Yeah, a complicating problem here is that the idea of building a new arena at Carolina North is, all things considered, the pretty obvious "right choice". it has the following benefits...

- Limited interruption of practices/games while construction is being done.
- Escape DD donor contracts that stifle current fundraising and student location
- Free up land in now fairly congested part of campus (including UNC Hospitals)
- Ability to create abundant parking & coordinated traffic solutions (and free up student/faculty spots on campus from needing to be taken over for basketball)
- Anchor location for future Carolina North development
- Greatest ability to "monetize" new/renovated arena to support Athletic Dept.

And while there are drawbacks, they seem relatively minimal...

- Highest cost of all considered options (although I imagine Carolina Basketball can generate sufficient donations for any of the projects)
- Loss of on-campus arena and the charm/nostalgia that goes with such a location
 
uncjhodges said:
1. Thats probably fair and it seems particularly fraught coming from unc basketball which has always seemed a little gatekeepy in their own right, but it does match up with other stories i’d heard about Roberts in completely different fields


2. I admit i’m coming from a completely negative view on Roberts for multiple reasons at this point and
3. I’m not sure he’s wrong on this one. It’s not what i “want” but that doesn’t mean it’s wrong to move it to Carolina North. I think this is a delicate time for UNC sports, particularly the 2 revenue ones and I’m not sure he’s the right person to lead us through even if he/they make the “correct” decisions
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If I could wave a magic wand we would copy Virginia and have a ~15-18K seat arena on or directly adjacent to campus with an intimate build that gives the students the best seats to create a tough home court environment.

Since that isn’t a realistic option, I’d rather take a swing building a new arena in that mold at Carolina North. I think Greg has reported that something about the site that the Dean Dome is built on would make a renovation difficult, but even beyond widening the concourses and updating the amenities it’s just way too cavernous of a structure imo.

The concern is obviously that a Carolina North arena would suffer the fate of some new arenas/stadiums and become a soulless shell compared to what it replaced. I think if that site is thoughtfully built out as a genuine extension of the UNC campus then it could work, but I realize that’s far from being a sure thing.
 
Peppers49 said:
If I could wave a magic wand we would copy Virginia and have a ~15-18K seat arena on or directly adjacent to campus with an intimate build that gives the students the best seats to create a tough home court environment.

Since that isn’t a realistic option, I’d rather take a swing building a new arena in that mold at Carolina North. I think Greg has reported that something about the site that the Dean Dome is built on would make a renovation difficult, but even beyond widening the concourses and updating the amenities it’s just way too cavernous of a structure imo.

The concern is obviously that a Carolina North arena would suffer the fate of some new arenas/stadiums and become a soulless shell compared to what it replaced. I think if that site is thoughtfully built out as a genuine extension of the UNC campus then it could work, but I realize that’s far from being a sure thing.
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The Dean Dome is pretty soulless compared to Carmichael. It is so large and the student seating so far away, it simply does not have very much "soul" -- even though it lasted 3x as long as Carmichael.

A new arena will be smaller with better seating. I'd expect the noise level and home court advantage will be much better with a new building.

I honestly do not have very fond memories for the Smith Center -- of course, I left Chapel Hill in 92 and only made it for a game a year or so after that time. So maybe my perspective on the building is a bit less sentimental.
 
Calheel said:
The Dean Dome is pretty soulless compared to Carmichael. It is so large and the student seating so far away, it simply does not have very much "soul" -- even though it lasted 3x as long as Carmichael.

A new arena will be smaller with better seating. I'd expect the noise level and home court advantage will be much better with a new building.

I honestly do not have very fond memories for the Smith Center -- of course, I left Chapel Hill in 92 and only made it for a game a year or so after that time. So maybe my perspective on the building is a bit less sentimental.
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I agree with all of this. Of course the games played in the Dean Dome were amazing and historic. But the venue itself is nothing special and in many ways detracts from the experience of going to a game. I won't miss it personally.
 
My fear is that they make the same mistake with a new stadium that they made with the Dean Dome…giving 90% of the seats to big money donors. We need more seats for students, not less.
 
ZZLPHeels said:
My fear is that they make the same mistake with a new stadium that they made with the Dean Dome…giving 90% of the seats to big money donors. We need more seats for students, not less.
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I understand that sentiment but the thing's gotta get built with somebody's money. My recollection is that for conference games the student allotment was 6,000 seats, which would be around 25-30% of seats. (There were fewer student seats for non-conference games, and even fewer for the games when students are off-campus, as I recall.) I hope they better prioritize student seating in the layout, but I wouldn't expect to a see a student ticket allotment any higher than that 25-30% range.
 
Calheel said:
The Dean Dome is pretty soulless compared to Carmichael. It is so large and the student seating so far away, it simply does not have very much "soul" -- even though it lasted 3x as long as Carmichael.

A new arena will be smaller with better seating. I'd expect the noise level and home court advantage will be much better with a new building.

I honestly do not have very fond memories for the Smith Center -- of course, I left Chapel Hill in 92 and only made it for a game a year or so after that time. So maybe my perspective on the building is a bit less sentimental.
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I was trying to be diplomatic but yeah I agree with this, I’ve never thought the Smith Center itself was some amazing cathedral of basketball.

Went to as many games there as I could while I was at UNC, saw some incredible moments, but the times I’ve been back over the years since I graduated (admittedly not too often) I’m reminded that it’s outdated in so many ways compared to some of the newer college arenas I’ve had the chance to see.
 
I don't think the location of the Dean Dome contributes to any school spirit. As long as they get the student seating configuration correct (lining the court), then it seems laughable to me that hopping on a shuttle to go to the game would cause any attendance or atmosphere problems among students. There are pros and cons to both locations and acting like it's a no-brainer to keep the stadium in it's current location isn't accurate imo.
 
I wasn't really paying attention when the dean dome was built but I was wondering if there were people back then complaining about moving from the middle of campus all the way down to South campus
 
GoHeelsweeeehoooo said:
I wasn't really paying attention when the dean dome was built but I was wondering if there were people back then complaining about moving from the middle of campus all the way down to South campus
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Yes, especially since there wasn't any of the infill. Kenan Flagler was planned but not started until the exterior of the Dean Dome was finished.
 
I'm with all of the folks who opine that the Smith Center isn't necessarily some venerable cathedral of college basketball that simply can't be replaced. The home teams that have played there, the banners that have been won and raised there, the jerseys in the rafter, etc. - not to mention that gorgeous hue of light blue everywhere- are all what makes that building special. But the building itself is actually kind of crappy, if we're being honest.

I've been to two arenas recently- Virginia's John Paul Jones Arena and Texas's Moody Center- that I think are the exact models that Carolina should replicate. Smaller arenas, tons of premium seating and amenities, high-tech, and just generally enjoyable to be in. I never, ever think of the Smith Center as "enjoyable to be in." I enjoy watching the home team win games there, and I enjoy that there have been so many memorable moments and wins there through the years. But the seats are uncomfortable and cramped, the concourses are awful, the piss trough bathrooms are bad, the concessions are horrible, and outside of the Duke game (or maybe a select handful of other big matchups) the building just feels cavernous, sterile, and unimposing.
 
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