Hubert Davis Catch-all - HUBERT OFFICIALLY OUT

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duluoz said:
I hope it’s just a gut reaction and some spark comes back for you. But this is a position many people are gearing toward anyway, myself included. It’s never been just about the wins and losses (like it seems to be for many posters here), but about what they were built on.

The banners and jerseys will still be up there, but there’s just not much holding them up anymore.

And TJ Otzelberger or [insert random latest “hottest thing” coach] ain’t fixing that. This has never been just about keeping or firing HD, it’s a referendum on even giving a shit about something we used to love, that has been slowly fading from sight. And the substitute version may be inevitable but it’s artificial and hollow, and just doesn’t cut it. It’s a flimsy placeholder for what was.
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Many are only concerned about wins and loses which is fine but they don't really get those who feel differently.
 
duluoz said:
I hope it’s just a gut reaction and some spark comes back for you. But this is a position many people are gearing toward anyway, myself included. It’s never been just about the wins and losses (like it seems to be for many posters here), but about what they were built on.

The banners and jerseys will still be up there, but there’s just not much holding them up anymore.

And TJ Otzelberger or [insert random latest “hottest thing” coach] ain’t fixing that. This has never been just about keeping or firing HD, it’s a referendum on even giving a shit about something we used to love, that has been slowly fading from sight. And the substitute version may be inevitable but it’s artificial and hollow, and just doesn’t cut it. It’s a flimsy placeholder for what was.
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I understand those feelings, but the college basketball world has changed around UNC. We can't make that world come back by trying to play by the rules of 20 years ago while everyone else plays by the current rules. Not even Roy Williams could make that work, and if anyone could have done it, it was him.

It's never been just about the wins and losses for me either. But there is no way for it to be special without the wins and the success. I want to win and be special. But you can't be special without winning. And I don't necessarily agree with you that hiring someone from "outside" the family means it can't be special anymore.
 
rodoheel said:
I understand those feelings, but the college basketball world has changed around UNC. We can't make that world come back by trying to play by the rules of 20 years ago while everyone else plays by the current rules. Not even Roy Williams could make that work, and if anyone could have done it, it was him.

It's never been just about the wins and losses for me either. But there is no way for it to be special without the wins and the success. I want to win and be special. But you can't be special without winning. And I don't necessarily agree with you that hiring someone from "outside" the family means it can't be special anymore.
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Spot on...great post.
 
1. The reason that HD said "Because that was my decision", I think, is that he knew he was going to be fired. To those saying he blamed the players (I don't know what the basis for that is), I mean, they did miss a lot of foul shots. I can understand being REALLY frustrated as the coach to lose a job like that. It wasn't a good look but he knew he was gone, I think.

2. Hubert's life story was being written off. He wasn't good enough to play at UNC, they said. He wouldn't be much of an NBA player, they said. And he succeeded because he never quit.

And he wasn't done at UNC yet. He didn't want to go out a loser. I can understand that. I don't think his statement post-firing was helpful, but I can see where he was coming from.
 
rodoheel said:
I understand those feelings, but the college basketball world has changed around UNC. We can't make that world come back by trying to play by the rules of 20 years ago while everyone else plays by the current rules. Not even Roy Williams could make that work, and if anyone could have done it, it was him.

It's never been just about the wins and losses for me either. But there is no way for it to be special without the wins and the success. I want to win and be special. But you can't be special without winning. And I don't necessarily agree with you that hiring someone from "outside" the family means it can't be special anymore.
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What it does mean, though, is that there is no longer an unbroken line to the past. Remember how Harrison Barnes talked about how much he idolized MJ? I mean, MJ played at Carolina long before Barnes was even born. But Roy coached MJ. Roy learned from Dean who coached all those guys. And HD carrying on the tradition meant that the legends of MJ and Worthy aren't just dusty school history like Choo Choo Justice. There was a live link. And that's no longer the case.

I'm not saying that what was done shouldn't have been done. I'm just saying there's a cost, which I think everyone knows.
 
rodoheel said:
I understand those feelings, but the college basketball world has changed around UNC. We can't make that world come back by trying to play by the rules of 20 years ago while everyone else plays by the current rules. Not even Roy Williams could make that work, and if anyone could have done it, it was him.

It's never been just about the wins and losses for me either. But there is no way for it to be special without the wins and the success. I want to win and be special. But you can't be special without winning. And I don't necessarily agree with you that hiring someone from "outside" the family means it can't be special anymore.
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I agree that it's a brave new world in college basketball and it is no longer about the student athlete that plays men's college basketball. It is a world that signs hired guns who have no interest in getting a college education and laughs at the notion of being part of a Carolina family..

I disagree that signing hired guns with no interest in getting a UNC degree means we can still be special. No we will be not be special and like every other guns for hire program... but I'm an old codger who has always been proud of my alma mater turning out basketball success and players that valued a UNC degree.
 
rodoheel said:
I understand those feelings, but the college basketball world has changed around UNC. We can't make that world come back by trying to play by the rules of 20 years ago while everyone else plays by the current rules. Not even Roy Williams could make that work, and if anyone could have done it, it was him.

It's never been just about the wins and losses for me either. But there is no way for it to be special without the wins and the success. I want to win and be special. But you can't be special without winning. And I don't necessarily agree with you that hiring someone from "outside" the family means it can't be special anymore.
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I think you're right here. But with that, people should be able to understand why this is not really a moment to be celebrated. It feels like some have taken it personally that Hubert didn't win n enough games.
 
superrific said:
What it does mean, though, is that there is no longer an unbroken line to the past. Remember how Harrison Barnes talked about how much he idolized MJ? I mean, MJ played at Carolina long before Barnes was even born. But Roy coached MJ. Roy learned from Dean who coached all those guys. And HD carrying on the tradition meant that the legends of MJ and Worthy aren't just dusty school history like Choo Choo Justice. There was a live link. And that's no longer the case.

I'm not saying that what was done shouldn't have been done. I'm just saying there's a cost, which I think everyone knows.
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You can have those links to the history and the past without having them specifically through the head coach. There will still be people involved with UNC basketball who have those links back to the program history. I hope a new coach will retain at least one UNC alum as an assistant. I hope a new UNC coach will come in with a reverence for the history and tradition of the program and a desire to be a part of that history, not displace it. I hope former players will continue to be welcomed back as guests of the program, for summer pickup, etc.

Is it possible that a new coach could not do some of those things, and we truly could lose the feel of connection to the past? Sure, it's possible. But it's not a given, either, like some people seem to be treating it.
 
heelinhell said:
I agree that it's a brave new world in college basketball and it is no longer about the student athlete that plays men's college basketball. It is a world that signs hired guns who have no interest in getting a college education and laughs at the notion of being part of a Carolina family..

I disagree that signing hired guns with no interest in getting a UNC degree means we can still be special... but I'm an old codger who has always been proud of my alma mater turning out basketball success and players that valued a UNC degree.
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It means UNC is just one of many now. I suppose it was inevitable but it still stings.
 
I’ve been giving more thought to the coaching candidates this morning and how TJ Otzelberger is apparently the sexy candidate du jour (that is outside of the obvious “grand slam” tier that would be comprised of Brad Stevens, Dusty May, or Tommy Lloyd). I would personally besatisfied with TJO because I followed college basketball closely and feel like he is legitimately a very strong X’s and O’s coach and system-installer. But I do have concern that he would not be flashy enough for a lot of our fans because he would not attract the same kind of attention and media adulation that Duke does. I’m also not necessarily sure how well he would recruit to UNC juxtaposed against Duke, but in today’s current climate recruiting ability is not really that much of a concern as much as financial resource availability.

I actually think that TJO would be very similar to how Tony Bennett was at UVA- not at all flashy, didn’t seek the spotlight or the limelight, had a specific system and style to which he recruited and coached without deviation but one without much fanfare. But I am concerned a little bit that if it did not render Final Fours, immediate head to head wins against Duke, and legitimate national championship contention almost right away, that many fans would sour.
 
superrific said:
1. The reason that HD said "Because that was my decision", I think, is that he knew he was going to be fired. To those saying he blamed the players (I don't know what the basis for that is), I mean, they did miss a lot of foul shots. I can understand being REALLY frustrated as the coach to lose a job like that. It wasn't a good look but he knew he was gone, I think.

2. Hubert's life story was being written off. He wasn't good enough to play at UNC, they said. He wouldn't be much of an NBA player, they said. And he succeeded because he never quit.

And he wasn't done at UNC yet. He didn't want to go out a loser. I can understand that. I don't think his statement post-firing was helpful, but I can see where he was coming from.
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Regarding point 1: from reading IC, it seems Hubert did not know he was going to be fired.
 
superrific said:
What it does mean, though, is that there is no longer an unbroken line to the past. Remember how Harrison Barnes talked about how much he idolized MJ? I mean, MJ played at Carolina long before Barnes was even born. But Roy coached MJ. Roy learned from Dean who coached all those guys. And HD carrying on the tradition meant that the legends of MJ and Worthy aren't just dusty school history like Choo Choo Justice. There was a live link. And that's no longer the case.

I'm not saying that what was done shouldn't have been done. I'm just saying there's a cost, which I think everyone knows.
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This is a cost that many here have minimized and glossed over. But we’re all going to find out the hard way.
 
heelinhell said:
I disagree that signing hired guns with no interest in getting a UNC degree means we can still be special... but I'm an old codger who has always been proud of my alma mater turning out basketball success and players that valued a UNC degree.
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If that's the way you feel, then we already stopped being "special" years ago, and keeping Hubert wasn't going to change anything. But personally I still consider guys like Coby White and Drake Powell and Brady Manek and Caleb Wilson to be part of the Carolina family, not just "hired guns," whether they ultimately get their UNC degrees or not.

We may not be able to be "special" in the exact way you want to be, and certainly college fans of many different schools are feeling that loss of connection you talk about. But that doesn't mean we can't still be special in some way, even if it's updated for a new college sports landscape.

If anything, though, your criticism should not be of anything related to UNC's bball program, but instead of the universities, including UNC, that clung for too long to an illegal and exploitative model of college sports, rather than trying to find a new structure that balanced athlete rights with the interests of the fans and schools, and instead flung us into this NIL. constant-player-movement hellscape. As I said, the issue is not that UNC itself changed, but that the college sports landscape around us changed.
 
CFordUNC said:
I’ve been giving more thought to the coaching candidates this morning and how TJ Otzelberger is apparently the sexy candidate du jour (that is outside of the obvious “grand slam” tier that would be comprised of Brad Stevens, Dusty May, or Tommy Lloyd). I would personally besatisfied with TJO because I followed college basketball closely and feel like he is legitimately a very strong X’s and O’s coach and system-installer. But I do have concern that he would not be flashy enough for a lot of our fans because he would not attract the same kind of attention and media adulation that Duke does. I’m also not necessarily sure how well he would recruit to UNC juxtaposed against Duke, but in today’s current climate recruiting ability is not really that much of a concern as much as financial resource availability.

I actually think that TJO would be very similar to how Tony Bennett was at UVA- not at all flashy, didn’t seek the spotlight or the limelight, had a specific system and style to which he recruited and coached without deviation but one without much fanfare. But I am concerned a little bit that if it did not render Final Fours, immediate head to head wins against Duke, and legitimate national championship contention almost right away, that many fans would sour.
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TJO is squarely in the home run tier, IMO.

Jon Scheyer isn't "flashy" either. We don't need a coach to be a showman. The winning and the talent are what will bring the attention and adulation.
 
Bigs23 said:
It means UNC is just one of many now. I suppose it was inevitable but it still stings.
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Yeah, I cherish when we were special companioning success on the court without compromising success in the classroom.
I am coming to accept the new reality, but I will refuse to accept it for what I had enjoyed for 50 years as a UNC grad
 
rodoheel said:
TJO is squarely in the home run tier, IMO.

Jon Scheyer isn't "flashy" either. We don't need a coach to be a showman. The winning and the talent are what will bring the attention and adulation.
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Just win-be steady-have players attention
 
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