Hubert Davis Catch-all

[superrific]

He was a bit like Belichick in how he ran off talent. I bet Julius and Ronald would have stuck around for Roy in 2002. But they had options and didn't want to waste their time with that asshole.

Nice shiv of the football coach. LOL. Comparisons to Matt Doherty are among the biggest insults in UNC sports. Doh and Bunting.

 

[akillesheel]

Wait, what? Felton, May and McCants were all lottery picks. Jawad had two cups of coffee in the NBA. Jackie was one of our better role players.

The team HD inherited had zero players ever drafted. Caleb Love is getting a cup of coffee in the league, but it will probably not surprise you that he's shooting 39% from the field and will not be there for long.

The talent Roy was left was vastly superior than the talent HD was left.

"lottery picks" obscures the fact that Felton, May, and McCants were all NBA busts. Felton never had an NBA season even as efficient as the one Caleb Love is having right now. the NBA, like all leagues, is just better at drafting now than it was 20 years ago, so it's not really a great cross-generational measure of talent.

you may as well look at high school rankings. RSCI had Felton #3, McCants #4, May #9; it also had Love #13, Bacot #23, Davis #43, Puff Johnson #59, Leaky Black #64 (Walker Kessler #18, Dawson Garcia #35, as we remember some guys). Certainly 2005 has the edge, but I maintain that having the latter group taught by Roy is a better base than the former group taught by Doh.

 

[superrific]

Forte might’ve stuck around too. It was a different era where guys like Forte, who was projected as a late first round pick, might stick around to improve their draft status.

I doubt it. Forte was pretty clearly on a two year plan. He wasn't going to improve his draft status at all; he was undersized for a 2 guard and not a good enough shooter to make up for it (not too many people did make up for it -- that was a big guard era in the NBA). And he was never going to be a point guard.

Forte was basically Caleb Love with a considerably better jumper.

 

[altmin]

Curry was actually drafted that year and stuck around the NfL for like 7 seasons.

 

[superrific]

"lottery picks" obscures the fact that Felton, May, and McCants were all NBA busts. Felton never had an NBA season even as efficient as the one Caleb Love is having right now. the NBA, like all leagues, is just better at drafting now than it was 20 years ago, so it's not really a great cross-generational measure of talent.

you may as well look at high school rankings. RSCI had Felton #3, McCants #4, May #9; it also had Love #13, Bacot #23, Davis #43, Puff Johnson #59, Leaky Black #64 (Walker Kessler #18, Dawson Garcia #35, as we remember some guys). Certainly 2005 has the edge, but I maintain that having the latter group taught by Roy is a better base than the former group taught by Doh.

Dude. Quit it. Felton played almost 15 years in the league. I don't know what you think Caleb Love is doing this year, but he's started precisely one game and he is shooting 38% from the field. He is also averaging 2.7 assists per game. Felton was always in the 7s and 8s until later in his career. I predict Caleb has one more NBA season in him, tops.

Sean May's pro career was hampered by injuries, so that's not much of a comparison. And McCants had some injury trouble and his psych problems were a big impediment for him. He was also undersized for the league. But he did score 15 points per game while shooting 45/40/76

 

[SnoopRob]

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Doherty was not at all left with a shit sandwich. Not even close. But that’s an entirely different discussion.

Doh was left less a "shit sandwich" and more a ticking time bomb.

Doh was left plenty of talent, but most of it was simply high-level role player talent rather than star talent, with the one exception being Joe Forte.

Doh overall did well that first year, although the strain of his coaching style was likely showing down the stretch of that first year.

But once Forte turned pro after his sophomore year and Curry (and Peppers) chose to focus on football after that season, there was a serious talent deficit.

Of course, I don't think talent alone explains 8-20 and a lot of that probably has to do with Doh's coaching style tearing the team down in a tough year rather than building them up, but the lack of high-end talent certainly was a major problem. And, of course, the next year the real talent were all Freshmen and Sophs and once May went out for the season with an injury, we were in trouble again (which was significantly compounded by Doh's coaching style).

I'm not saying that Doh got a bum rap or anything, but he did take over a team that had a significant talent cliff coming when he was hired.

 

[superrific]

Curry was actually drafted that year and stuck around the NfL for like 7 seasons.

He was, but a 7th round pick. He might have chosen to play basketball given that his football career was not exploding.

But anyway, I don't think there is any question that Matt inherited a roster with little talent behind Haywood and Forte. The depth that year was so poor that Doh recruited Peppers for the spot, which was very uncommon. And he found a great role for Peppers, which again was not easy. The 00 team was at one point ranked #1 overall, and was a really good team until Forte mentally checked out. Matt was pretty good at evaluating talent, pretty good at developing talent, pretty good at using talent.

None of that, of course, matters if you chase all your talent out the door. That was Matt's big problem. But he left the program with more talent than he inherited, without question.

I know there were some issues at Notre Dame, but I also wonder what might have happened if Matt had not inherited Forte. Forte was also quite an asshole, and his behavior in the pros helped usher him out of the league. Put two assholes in the same room and they usually make each other worse. Probably Matt was never going to chill out, but maybe if he had a more coachable team at the start he could have adjusted. Capel was also a pain in the ass and pretty uncoachable.

 

[superrific]

Of course, I don't think talent alone explains 8-20

It explained most of it. If we had a returning senior guard instead of a senior C/PF and a senior PF/SF, it might have been different. But the guards that year were horrendous. You don't necessarily need a good PG to be a good team, but you have to have at least one not-terrible guard and we did not.

 

[SnoopRob]

I know there were some issues at Notre Dame, but I also wonder what might have happened if Matt had not inherited Forte. Forte was also quite an asshole, and his behavior in the pros helped usher him out of the league. Put two assholes in the same room and they usually make each other worse. Probably Matt was never going to chill out, but maybe if he had a more coachable team at the start he could have adjusted. Capel was also a pain in the ass and pretty uncoachable.

I've long wondered what might have happened with Doh's career had he not had the Carolina job thrust upon him and he'd have had time to grow and mature before being under the brightest of lights.

On one hand, I like to think that he may have been able to grow into being a very good coach or better. But then his career post-Carolina seems to suggest that wasn't really in the cards.

 

[superrific]

Doh overall did well that first year, although the strain of his coaching style was likely showing down the stretch of that first year.

If I recall, the team lost a game at Clemson that it should not have lost. Forte was having a pretty lackluster game, not too much effort. Doh attempted to fire him up by hurling a basketball at his head (might have worked to fire Doh up, not so much others), and Forte just checked out after that. The team fell apart after that point.

I have no idea what would have happened had he chosen, let's say, a softer touch with the team in the locker room at halftime, but that hurled basketball was a major, major mistake.

 

[Calheel]

Nice shiv of the football coach. LOL. Comparisons to Matt Doherty are among the biggest insults in UNC sports. Doh and Bunting.

Doh and Bill both thought very highly of themselves. And while Bill actually had a basis for that belief, his arrogance about his ability to succeed in the "lesser" world of college football contributed greatly to our problems last year.

 

[Icky Mettle]

He was left with plenty of talent for his first year. But Matt D's first recruiting class was Jackie, Jawad and Melvin. What he inherited for the 8-20 team was:

Boone, BMo, Capel, Lang, Melendez, Fing.

If that's not a shit sandwich, it's close. Capel was a fine role player, but at his peak he would be the fourth best player on a good team. Lang was also a complementary piece. The backcourt was a disaster and there was no depth.

I still don’t call that leaving Doherty a shit sandwich. By that logic, you could argue that Dean left Gut a shit sandwich based on everyone who left the team after the 1998 season. But Gut did a pretty good job— outside of the NCAAT— with that “shit sandwich” that was the 1999 team.

Gut left Doherty plenty of talent, experience, and a well-rounded roster. What happened after that is more on Doherty. He likely drove off Forte and Curry (I do agree that Peppers would have focused on football his junior year). It was Doherty’s job to put together the incoming freshman class for the 2001-02 season. And Gut did sort of give him an assist in that class (or at least attempted to), which didn’t pan out through no fault of any coach, in bringing in Jason Parker, who was expected to join UNC after a year at Fork Union.

But any way you look at it, even if that 2002 team was low on talent by Tar Heel basketball standards, it still shouldn’t have been an 8-20 season with what the team had. Doherty made his own shit sandwich.

 

[Calheel]

I've long wondered what might have happened with Doh's career had he not had the Carolina job thrust upon him and he'd have had time to grow and mature before being under the brightest of lights.

On one hand, I like to think that he may have been able to grow into being a very good coach or better. But then his career post-Carolina seems to suggest that wasn't really in the cards.

His social media posts are the ravings of a mad man. I don't think he had the temperament to be a successful college coach no matter when he started

 

[akillesheel]

Dude. Quit it. Felton played almost 15 years in the league. I don't know what you think Caleb Love is doing this year, but he's started precisely one game and he is shooting 38% from the field. He is also averaging 2.7 assists per game. Felton was always in the 7s and 8s until later in his career. I predict Caleb has one more NBA season in him, tops.

Sean May's pro career was hampered by injuries, so that's not much of a comparison. And McCants had some injury trouble and his psych problems were a big impediment for him. He was also undersized for the league. But he did score 15 points per game while shooting 45/40/76

Felton had a career average eFG of 45.9%. Love right now is at 48.6% - purely as a scorer, he is, mathematically, having a more efficient season than Felton ever did. He's 10th on the NBA rookie ladder and was higher before his minutes got squeezed by guys returning from injury. Assists are a non sequitur because Love's not playing on the ball. Perhaps you're right about Love's NBA future, but that would remain true if he was putting up Felton numbers -- the only difference between the two is draft pick equity.

 

[Calheel]

Peppers was definitely not going to play again. He was drafted in 2002! He would have been prepping for the draft under any circumstance. Curry also, though he might have been a closer call.

That is using a bit of a 2026 mindset to judge the actions of a 2002 kid. Tony Gonzalez played for Cal basketball the same year he was drafted in the NFL (1997).

There was no assurance that Pep would have stayed, but he loved basketball more than football and I think if he were playing for Roy, he would have stuck around.

 

[finesse]

I actually believe that NIL has made talent less evenly distributed than it was in prior years. Those mid-majors don’t have the NIL funds that the high majors do and the high majors are taking the mid-major teams’ best players. Mid-majors used to succeed by holding onto their players for four years and putting experienced teams on the court. They can’t do that anymore.

That would only be true if the talent remained the same and the power players got everyone they wanted. There are simply a lot more good players. They start earlier, play more , train harder and come from more places. Sure, the cream will rise to the top but there's a lot more left after the top programs get theirs. It also means that "is he worth a chance player" isn't going to the top schools, at least not his first year or two. He'll go to where he can prove himself.

 

[superrific]

I've long wondered what might have happened with Doh's career had he not had the Carolina job thrust upon him and he'd have had time to grow and mature before being under the brightest of lights.

On one hand, I like to think that he may have been able to grow into being a very good coach or better. But then his career post-Carolina seems to suggest that wasn't really in the cards.

I don't know. He had some decent success after UNC. Emphasis on decent, but he did win some games with some poor programs.

I suspect that his time at UNC made him quite bitter. We saw that bitterness on display a few times in Roy's late tenure, IIRC. Adding bitterness to his personality was always going to be a problem.

 

[SnoopRob]

It explained most of it. If we had a returning senior guard instead of a senior C/PF and a senior PF/SF, it might have been different. But the guards that year were horrendous. You don't necessarily need a good PG to be a good team, but you have to have at least one not-terrible guard and we did not.

That team lost to Hampton, Davidson, Charleston, and Ohio...none of those teams were more talented than we were.

I think that team with a strengths-based coach who focused on the positives could have been a .500 squad, but that was probably roughly its ceiling.

Instead we had a coach who routinely tore players down and focused on the negative and that team largely fell apart down the stretch that year.

The real miracle of that season is that we beat Clemson in CH that year (handily, even) in our last home game. It would have been easy for that team to have packed it in by that point, but they kept the streak going.

 

[thebruinbleedstarheelblue]

Wait, what? Felton, May and McCants were all lottery picks. Jawad had two cups of coffee in the NBA. Jackie was one of our better role players.

The team HD inherited had zero players ever drafted. Caleb Love is getting a cup of coffee in the league, but it will probably not surprise you that he's shooting 39% from the field and will not be there for long.

The talent Roy was left was vastly superior than the talent HD was left.

They weren't playing vs '05... the team was probably a little bit well-rounded in Illinois was more talented than the other team teams as well.

The problem with Hubert is that he hasn't come close to that success again. Roy did it again.

For those that say that Hubert is still learning... I'm concerned that his most inexperienced year was the best.

 

[thebruinbleedstarheelblue]

That team lost to Hampton, Davidson, Charleston, and Ohio...none of those teams were more talented than we were.

I think that team with a strengths-based coach who focused on the positives could have been a .500 squad, but that was probably roughly its ceiling.

Instead we had a coach who routinely tore players down and focused on the negative and that team largely fell apart down the stretch that year.

The real miracle of that season is that we beat Clemson in CH that year (handily, even) in our last home game. It would have been easy for that team to have packed it in by that point, but they kept the streak going.

that was a culture breakdown.