Hubert Davis Catch-all

[superrific]

Ah, I misread/understood your response.

I agree that the guard talent was very inexperienced and didn't pan out to their rankings, although I think some of that was coaching and some was just natural ability.

But Carolina had enough of a talent advantage inside over those teams that they should have won all 4. The KP rankings of those 4 teams...

Hampton 116
Davidson 119
Charleston 79
Ohio 115

I mean, maybe Charleston should have been close, but the other 3 really shouldn't have been in doubt even if closer than you'd expect from a Carolina team. For comparison, the Pitt team we beat Saturday is ranked 110 by KP.

Also, the Ohio game was in mid-February that year...that wasn't an early season game.

While the talent level of the 2001-2002 team was lacking, especially in experience at the guard positions, it was also a failure of coaching for the team to be as bad as it was.

And we were 137. Not sure why you think we should have beaten them all.

There's no point arguing something from 25 years ago. Our memories of it are basically self-serving at this point. I believe what I believe because that's what I remember, but I don't remember much else. Same for you, I'm guessing. It was a shit year, that's for sure. Maybe it didn't have to be THAT bad but that team wasn't making the NCAA tournament, I think we can agree on that.

 

[SnoopRob]

And we were 137. Not sure why you think we should have beaten them all.

There's no point arguing something from 25 years ago. Our memories of it are basically self-serving at this point. I believe what I believe because that's what I remember, but I don't remember much else. Same for you, I'm guessing. It was a shit year, that's for sure. Maybe it didn't have to be THAT bad but that team wasn't making the NCAA tournament, I think we can agree on that.

That we were 137th in KP ranking is symptom of the failure, not the cause.

My point in all of that discussion was to say that it wasn't merely talent that caused that season. I'd agree that even with a great coach we would have struggled mightily to be a NCAAT tourney team, although a great coach would have possibly have had us a bubble team rather than completely falling apart.

 

[SnoopRob]

Being that the coach in question is Hubert Davis, if we think he can become who we want in the next 2 years, the answer is unequivocally "yes".

What standard do you think that HD will be able to consistently meet in 2 more years that would be worth giving him that time to get there? By that, I mean, starting in Year 8 of his tenure, what do you think that the average season (understanding there would be a bit of seasonal variability) under HD would look like for the following 10 seasons that would be the payoff for our wait?

 

[akillesheel]

Oh, bullshit. You're comparing career average to a single season? Felton had several years of 48,49%. And you can't say "assists are a non-sequitur." First, plenty of guys who play off the ball get assists in today's NBA, but more to the point: Felton was valuable BECAUSE HE COULD PLAY ON THE BALL. He was a PG.

Your argument is that because Caleb is slightly better than Felton (which itself is a bogus and inaccurate premise) at one thing, he's better overall even though he is demonstrably worse at many other things. That makes no sense at all. It's like saying, well Wemby's blocked shots don't matter if you're comparing him to SGA because SGA isn't a shot blocker. Bullshit.

Felton had exactly one season, his 5th, with a better shooting efficiency than what Caleb is doing right now as a 2-way rookie with teammates he doesn't practice much with, and his eFG that season was less than 1 percentage point better... complain about the career vs season comparison if you like, but the season-by-season numbers don't really change much.

I'm not arguing that Caleb is a better overall player than Felton. My argument was about relative talent, which you took in the direction of NBA draft status because it allowed you to ignore how the players in question actually performed in the NBA, because Caleb's playing approximately at the level that Felton did in his best season: 15/3/8 per 36 on 48.3% eFG vs 18/4/4 per 36 on 48.6% eFG. Once you start talking about "value" then you're having a completely different conversation.

 

[heelinhell]

Felton had exactly one season, his 5th, with a better shooting efficiency than what Caleb is doing right now as a 2-way rookie with teammates he doesn't practice much with, and his eFG that season was less than 1 percentage point better... complain about the career vs season comparison if you like, but the season-by-season numbers don't really change much.

I'm not arguing that Caleb is a better overall player than Felton. My argument was about relative talent, which you took in the direction of NBA draft status because it allowed you to ignore how the players in question actually performed in the NBA, because Caleb's playing approximately at the level that Felton did in his best season: 15/3/8 per 36 on 48.3% eFG vs 18/4/4 per 36 on 48.6% eFG. Once you start talking about "value" then you're having a completely different conversation.

I just hope that Caleb has an opportunity to hit a crucial 3 pointer against the "shut down man" that takes us to a national championship !

 

[BillOfRights]

What standard do you think that HD will be able to consistently meet in 2 more years that would be worth giving him that time to get there? By that, I mean, starting in Year 8 of his tenure, what do you think that the average season (understanding there would be a bit of seasonal variability) under HD would look like for the following 10 seasons that would be the payoff for our wait?

That's kind of tough to answer. If I think back to Carolina's history since Dean Smith was hired, not looking anything up, in the next 10 years, I would hope for 12 wins over dook, be in the conversation for the national championship most years, 2 final fours, one championship game, average finish 25-30 wins and average sweet 16.

ETA i'm not sure that's realistic in the era of nil and free agency.

 

[superrific]

Felton had exactly one season, his 5th, with a better shooting efficiency than what Caleb is doing right now as a 2-way rookie with teammates he doesn't practice much with, and his eFG that season was less than 1 percentage point better... complain about the career vs season comparison if you like, but the season-by-season numbers don't really change much.

I'm not arguing that Caleb is a better overall player than Felton. My argument was about relative talent, which you took in the direction of NBA draft status because it allowed you to ignore how the players in question actually performed in the NBA, because Caleb's playing approximately at the level that Felton did in his best season: 15/3/8 per 36 on 48.3% eFG vs 18/4/4 per 36 on 48.6% eFG. Once you start talking about "value" then you're having a completely different conversation.

Sigh. First, Caleb is playing 20 mpg, not 35-36 like Raymond. Second, the league-wide eFG% is much higher now -- it's 54.4%, compared to right about 50.0% when Felton was playing. So Felton was about league average in eFG%. Caleb is well below. Basically the difference is that the league lets you shoot way more 3s now than it did.

Caleb is not playing anywhere close to Felton level. One way to know this is that Felton started 81 games in his age 24 season and then 80 in his age 25 season. Caleb has started one game, and he's getting a lot of mop up minutes.

This is a stupid conversation and I'm not going to engage in it any more. Caleb Love is not nearly as good a basketball player as Raymond Felton was, and he certainly was never nearly as good in college. One reason to use NBA draft as a measure is that it reflects the perceived value of the players at the time they exited school. What happened afterwards isn't really on the program in any way. Felton probably would have been better if he hadn't started drinking so much.

 

[akillesheel]

Sigh. First, Caleb is playing 20 mpg, not 35-36 like Raymond. Second, the league-wide eFG% is much higher now -- it's 54.4%, compared to right about 50.0% when Felton was playing. So Felton was about league average in eFG%. Caleb is well below. Basically the difference is that the league lets you shoot way more 3s now than it did.

Caleb is not playing anywhere close to Felton level. One way to know this is that Felton started 81 games in his age 24 season and then 80 in his age 25 season. Caleb has started one game, and he's getting a lot of mop up minutes.

This is a stupid conversation and I'm not going to engage in it any more. Caleb Love is not nearly as good a basketball player as Raymond Felton was, and he certainly was never nearly as good in college. One reason to use NBA draft as a measure is that it reflects the perceived value of the players at the time they exited school. What happened afterwards isn't really on the program in any way. Felton probably would have been better if he hadn't started drinking so much.

there's that word "value" again, as if the perceived value of those two players after they had gone through 2+ years of coaching by Roy Williams and Hubert Davis respectively after the points in time actually being talked about is not exactly a reflection of the coaching difference that I was trying to illuminate in the first place.

 

[heelinhell]

What standard do you think that HD will be able to consistently meet in 2 more years that would be worth giving him that time to get there? By that, I mean, starting in Year 8 of his tenure, what do you think that the average season (understanding there would be a bit of seasonal variability) under HD would look like for the following 10 seasons that would be the payoff for our wait?

Absolutely !

Win 30 games/year for the next 8 years
at least make the sweet 16 every year
2 Final Fours
play in a national championship game

but if he can't win at least one national championship in the next 8 years, then he should be fired !

 

[finesse]

there's that word "value" again, as if the perceived value of those two players after they had gone through 2+ years of coaching by Roy Williams and Hubert Davis respectively after the points in time actually being talked about is not exactly a reflection of the coaching difference that I was trying to illuminate in the first place.

The two years of coaching that led him to retire after these two seasons?

• 2020–21 Season: Finished 18-11, losing to Wisconsin in the first round of the NCAA Tournament, which was Williams' only opening-round loss in 30 appearances.
• 2019–20 Season: Finished with a 14-19 record, marking the only losing season of his 33-year head coaching career.

 

[superrific]

there's that word "value" again, as if the perceived value of those two players after they had gone through 2+ years of coaching by Roy Williams and Hubert Davis respectively after the points in time actually being talked about is not exactly a reflection of the coaching difference that I was trying to illuminate in the first place.

Fine, don't use college. Use high school. Bret Bearup used to frequent the IC boards back in the day. That was when he was an agent taking all-star teams to Europe and steering talent to Billy Donovan, before he was special advisor to the Nuggets owner. But anyway, he said about Raymond as a junior in high school -- can't miss NBA. Which was the consensus, which is why Ray was ranked top 3 in the country, #1 and #2 being Amare Stoudamire and Carmelo Anthony respectively.

Whatever. I don't think you're old enough to have watched the 05 team and you are a Caleb Love homer. I don't think you will find anyone else on this site who would agree with your contention that Caleb and Raymond were almost equal talents or almost equal players.

 

[superrific]

That we were 137th in KP ranking is symptom of the failure, not the cause.

My point in all of that discussion was to say that it wasn't merely talent that caused that season. I'd agree that even with a great coach we would have struggled mightily to be a NCAAT tourney team, although a great coach would have possibly have had us a bubble team rather than completely falling apart.

OK, but say we were #50. There's still a reasonable likelihood of losing at least one of four games against a 72 and three 110s. And I think #50 was above the ceiling for that group. But again, I don't remember very well after all these years and if it's OK, would rather not start digging up those memories.

 

[akillesheel]

Fine, don't use college. Use high school. Bret Bearup used to frequent the IC boards back in the day. That was when he was an agent taking all-star teams to Europe and steering talent to Billy Donovan, before he was special advisor to the Nuggets owner. But anyway, he said about Raymond as a junior in high school -- can't miss NBA. Which was the consensus, which is why Ray was ranked top 3 in the country, #1 and #2 being Amare Stoudamire and Carmelo Anthony respectively.

Whatever. I don't think you're old enough to have watched the 05 team and you are a Caleb Love homer. I don't think you will find anyone else on this site who would agree with your contention that Caleb and Raymond were almost equal talents or almost equal players.

I used high school earlier, when I brought up RSCI. Ray was #3, Caleb was #13. That's as clear an indication as any of what I've been saying, that the gap is not that big.

Lol at the age ad hominem. I could have called you blinded by nostalgia several times and didn't. The '05 team was in fact the first UNC team I devotedly followed, fwiw. And "a Caleb Love homer?" that's laughable. I think he's slightly over-hated by a lot of UNC fans but that a mutual separation was still for the best for both parties, I'm glad he held enough goodwill towards UNC that he steered Veesaar to Chapel Hill, and I'm happy to see him doing more than is expected for an undrafted player in the NBA. If that makes me a homer, so be it, I suppose.

The two years of coaching that led him to retire after these two seasons?

• 2020–21 Season: Finished 18-11, losing to Wisconsin in the first round of the NCAA Tournament, which was Williams' only opening-round loss in 30 appearances.
• 2019–20 Season: Finished with a 14-19 record, marking the only losing season of his 33-year head coaching career.

you're not going to be taken seriously if you use AI to write your responses, especially when they don't make sense. "two years of coaching by Roy Williams" was about Raymond Felton. Caleb Love didn't play for UNC in the 2019-20 season.

 

[finesse]

I used high school earlier, when I brought up RSCI. Ray was #3, Caleb was #13. That's as clear an indication as any of what I've been saying, that the gap is not that big.

Lol at the age ad hominem. I could have called you blinded by nostalgia several times and didn't. The '05 team was in fact the first UNC team I devotedly followed, fwiw. And "a Caleb Love homer?" that's laughable. I think he's slightly over-hated by a lot of UNC fans but that a mutual separation was still for the best for both parties, I'm glad he held enough goodwill towards UNC that he steered Veesaar to Chapel Hill, and I'm happy to see him doing more than is expected for an undrafted player in the NBA. If that makes me a homer, so be it, I suppose.

you're not going to be taken seriously if you use AI to write your responses, especially when they don't make sense. "two years of coaching by Roy Williams" was about Raymond Felton. Caleb Love didn't play for UNC in the 2019-20 season.

I did miss your reference to Roy coaching Felton since the discussion was previously about what each coach started with. I apologize for that.

AS for why I used AI, I don't remember those two seasons very well. I started chemo and radiation the day after the 2019 season started and I spent the next 16 months a bit preoccupied. I took a shortcut to pull up the records.

 

[akillesheel]

I did miss your reference to Roy coaching Felton since the discussion was previously about what each coach started with. I apologize for that.

AS for why I used AI, I don't remember those two seasons very well. I started chemo and radiation the day after the 2019 season started and I spent the next 16 months a bit preoccupied. I took a shortcut to pull up the records.

i'm glad you're still here and apologize for my tone. but that being the case, going for the gotcha like you did doesn't seem wise, no? and my caution against using AI, generally, stands. it should not be too much work to just type our own words.

 

[finesse]

i'm glad you're still here and apologize for my tone. but that being the case, going for the gotcha like you did doesn't seem wise, no? and my caution against using AI, generally, stands. it should not be too much work to just type our own words.

You might think that but I'm seriously not making this shit up. I'm 74, went to high schools that would not let college bound males take typing and then ended up working construction for 30 years before ever beginning to try. After 45 years of carpentry, I had to retire because I developed a tremor disorder. It has actually ameliorated but, let me tell you, typing skill ain't a given.

 

[akillesheel]

You might think that but I'm seriously not making this shit up. I'm 74, went to high schools that would not let college bound males take typing and then ended up working construction for 30 years before ever beginning to try. After 45 years of carpentry, I had to retire because I developed a tremor disorder. It has actually ameliorated but, let me tell you, typing skill ain't a given.

i am not going to be the asshole who argues against somebody bringing up their disability. there is plenty of work out there about the environmental and intellectual harms of generative AI. As a teacher, I furthermore have my own personal vendetta against the cheat-in-school machine that genAI functionally is, with ChatGPT's usage falling something like 85% from May to June. it does not have a place in conversation among humans. that's my piece.

 

[finesse]

i am not going to be the asshole who argues against somebody bringing up their disability. there is plenty of work out there about the environmental and intellectual harms of generative AI. As a teacher, I furthermore have my own personal vendetta against the cheat-in-school machine that genAI functionally is, with ChatGPT's usage falling something like 85% from May to June. it does not have a place in conversation among humans. that's my piece.

I should have mentioned that I absolutely agree with that. Using it for a synopsis of statistics is pretty much as far down that path as I care to go. I love reading and being able to investigate different POVs. I had just as soon not subsist on intellectually predigested pablum.

 

[Bigs23]

Fine, don't use college. Use high school. Bret Bearup used to frequent the IC boards back in the day. That was when he was an agent taking all-star teams to Europe and steering talent to Billy Donovan, before he was special advisor to the Nuggets owner. But anyway, he said about Raymond as a junior in high school -- can't miss NBA. Which was the consensus, which is why Ray was ranked top 3 in the country, #1 and #2 being Amare Stoudamire and Carmelo Anthony respectively.

Whatever. I don't think you're old enough to have watched the 05 team and you are a Caleb Love homer. I don't think you will find anyone else on this site who would agree with your contention that Caleb and Raymond were almost equal talents or almost equal players.

Felton was much better.

 

[superrific]

Lol at the age ad hominem. I could have called you blinded by nostalgia several times and didn't. The '05 team was in fact the first UNC team I devotedly followed, fwiw. And "a Caleb Love homer?" that's laughable. I think he's slightly over-hated by a lot of UNC fans but that a mutual separation was still for the best for both parties, I'm glad he held enough goodwill towards UNC that he steered Veesaar to Chapel Hill, and I'm happy to see him doing more than is expected for an undrafted player in the NBA. If that makes me a homer, so be it, I suppose.

It's not really an attack to say that you weren't old enough to follow the 05 team. That would be just a fact of the world, and I was almost right. And if you said I was being nostalgic, that also wouldn't be an attack. There's nothing wrong with being young, or old.

I just do not think that an incoming coach would be close to indifferent between the players. Inheriting Felton would be a huge attraction for a coach. Inheriting Love? Not nearly so much.