Hubert Davis Catch-all

[heel79]

The other thing is people act like dean and roy didn't lay some eggs. 1984 team with Jordan Perkins and Daughtry lost to Indiana. Took dean a decade after 82 to get back to FF. Roy had 2010. Let Kansas get too far up in 2008. Georgetown loss in 2007. 2020. Just seems like Hubert is graded on tougher scale.

 

[finesse]

I can’t speak for anyone else, but…
While I think he’s done enough to get another season, the fact is that he hasn’t had quality seasons on consecutive years.
Year 1 - finals
Year 2 - miss the tournament
Year 3 - 1 seed
Year 4 - last team in
Year 5 - overall, a success, albeit with some head scratchers (most notably, the west coast swing and the size of the loss to MooU)
Year 6 - ?????

It's not like I'm arguing for a life time contract. I'm in close but not complete agreement with you. I was more addressing the contingent that seems already convinced that this year will not be enough and some don't seem to want to even let the season play out before deciding.

Personally, I think this team in general and Hubert individually have improved enough, that barring a disastrous next year, to give him a chance to see us through the remaining turmoil. Pretty much everyone realizes that the pendulum has swung to allow entirely too much freedom on movement for players and some sort of stability is needed. As far as I know, there's not that much agreement on what that should be. I think that. as long as we improve even if not as fast as we might like at times, that these are parlous times for a change.

 

[He's Not Here]

Have to see where this year's team ends up. It's been ok overall, but there has just been a lot of up and down from year to year. Year 1 was really just mediocre until they made the run at the end of the season. Year 3 they still lost in the Sweet 16 to a lower seed. This year has been good, but still there are losses that make it look inconsistent with the west coast losses and the way they were blown out by State. They have had games where they had big leads and ended up in a nail biter, too, but at least they won those this year compared to collapses in years past.

I’m going to argue with you on the fact that year 1 was just some magical, fluke at the end of the season.
The beginning of the season was disappointing, at best. Prior to the BC game, they were still using Roy’s system. Starting with te BC game, they switched to the 4-out 1-in offense in which Brady’s shooting became a real weapon and provided driving lanes for Caleb and RJ as well as some space for Armando.

Give credit where it’s due —- That run (which lasted half the season) was a direct result of Hubert’s coaching.

 

[NYCBlueBlood]

It's hard to conceive of a scenario where we beat dook, UK, KU, UVA, Ville, and tOSU, are 10-5 in conference, 22-6 overall, and fans are begrudgingly saying maybe he's bought himself another season...

 

[heel79]

It's not like I'm arguing for a life time contract. I'm in close but not complete agreement with you. I was more addressing the contingent that seems already convinced that this year will not be enough and some don't seem to want to even let the season play out before deciding.

Personally, I think this team in general and Hubert individually have improved enough, that barring a disastrous next year, to give him a chance to see us through the remaining turmoil. Pretty much everyone realizes that the pendulum has swung to allow entirely too much freedom on movement for players and some sort of stability is needed. As far as I know, there's not that much agreement on what that should be. I think that. as long as we improve even if not as fast as we might like at times, that these are parlous times for a change.

I find myself agreeing with you almost completely in this issue. Does that worry you?

 

[finesse]

I find myself agreeing with you almost completely in this issue. Does that worry you?

A little but I'm encouraged that you're not too old to learn.

 

[superrific]

I'm from Durham. Black. Hubert was my hero in elementary school...I had the haircut.

Damn. That's on-the-nose, in a good way.

 

[ChileG]

And one good overall season since a great run at the end of his first season. The problem has always been the inconsistentcy. Almost winning a championship isn't enough when you have more mediocre to bad seasons than good ones.

It seems like people do get it, based on comments here and conversations I have irl.

 

[stankeylegjones]

Far be it from me to play devil's advocate in this discussion, but this year we've brought in a GM, brought in an analytics team, spent 14+ million on talent (one of the top spenders), we have a fringe first-rounder, a returning senior leader, the best freshmen we've had in 25+ years, a coaching staff in year five, and yet prior to CW going down we were playing like a border-line top 25 team. With all of those added supports, our metrics were worse than HD's average over his time at the helm, not by much, but worse. I just don't see how anyone can think that it's going to suddenly get a whole lot better than what we've seen from him and his staff - some very high highs, a few more very low lows, and a ton of mediocrity (by UNC standards). If what you've seen so far is enough for you, cool, but if not, I don't understand why you'd not want to go ahead and make the change. Does anyone honestly have confidence that next year is going see UNC at/near the top of the leaderboard - in year 6, at UNC, I think that would be the expectation.

Having said all of that, there is some season left, some more opportunities for HD/staff to show that they've truly turned the corner and will be able to get UNC back to their historical seat at the table. I just have very little faith that they'll be able to do it.

 

[rodoheel]

People who want Davis gone need to stop claiming that his first year was just some magical run at the end of the year. We went 17-4 over the last 21 games or more than half the season and finished 15-5 in the ACC for second place. I mean the west coast swing is being held against this year’s team and it was two fucking games, but over half a season of superlative results somehow doesn’t count.

2021-22 was a pretty awful 2/3 of the season (from the start through the disastrous home loss against Pitt which probably put us on the outside looking in for the NCAAT) followed by an amazing last five games of the regular season plus the postseason. Second place in the ACC meant very little that season, as Duke was the only other ACC team who got an NCAAT seed higher than 10th.

The 2 games on the west coast were not the only issue for this year's team; it was a terrible 5-game stretch in which we went 2-3 with two unimpressive home wins vs Wake and FSU and three ugly losses where the defense was a disaster. And the net sum of the season has us at #30 in KenPom, which is certainly nowhere in the ballpark of being "superlative." You act like we have been a top-10 team outside of two games, which is absolutely not the case.

 

[rodoheel]

The other thing is people act like dean and roy didn't lay some eggs. 1984 team with Jordan Perkins and Daughtry lost to Indiana. Took dean a decade after 82 to get back to FF. Roy had 2010. Let Kansas get too far up in 2008. Georgetown loss in 2007. 2020. Just seems like Hubert is graded on tougher scale.

Completely laughable to claim Hubert is being held to a tougher standard than Dean and Roy. No one acts like Dean and Roy won every game or that every season was perfect. But their overall results until Roy's last two years (the ones that made clear to him that he needed to step away) were so far ahead of Hubert's overall results that it is laughable to even compare them. From 2004-2019 Roy missed the tournament one time, in that anomalous 2010 season where we turned over almost our whole team and then got hammered by injuries. His NCAAT seeds in those seasons, in order, were 6, 1, 3, 1, 1, 1, N/A, 2, 1, 8, 6, 4, 1, 1, 2, 1. And in the postseason, he didn't lose in the first round a single time, until his very last season, and made the E8 or better 8 times in his first 16 years, before the last two bad years that led to a coaching change.

Dean didn't miss the tournament once in his last 23 seasons, and made it to the 2nd round of the tournament or better in each of his last 19. And his seeds in those 23 years were 1, 3, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 2, 8, 1, 4, 1, 1, 2, 6, 1,.

Again, just laughable to suggest Hubert is being held to a tougher standard. If anything he is being held to a far more lenient standard. For 40 years a 6 seed was a down year by UNC standards. Now we have a season where we're currently projected as a 6 seed and people are using words like "superlative" to describe the results. If you want to argue that in the modern era of college bball UNC should accept no longer being an elite program, that's fine. But it blows my mind that anyone would look at the last five seasons and think "why is anyone upset" when they see one season out of four where we were better than an 8 seed in the NCAAT (and are excited that this season we might get a 5 or 6).

 

[thebruinbleedstarheelblue]

Is it that you have missed the leaning of people in power nation wide? Would that they weren't worthy of consideration but that's just not true in a practical sense. The argument isn't if there are large numbers that feel that way but, just like in politics, if there are enough to swing the decisions.

I don't agree with your feelings about change but I understand why you feel this way. I don't understand why you're willing to discount some of the motives in play.

I'm from Durham. Black. Hubert was my hero in elementary school...I had the haircut.

We also had season tickets. I rode the bus and had classes with coach Ks daughter... I guess cause I grew up playing sports but everyone I know is a Carolina or Duke fan(there were a few state people but not really).

My friend group is pretty mixed... every carolina fan I know that is tired of Hubert Davis it just has to do with the fact that we're not elite anymore and how the product looks. It's as extreme as it used to be but some of my best friends are dookies.. I'm talking Walmart fans, employees, and Alumni.

Dook is on top... even the idea that we get a big win and celebrate it (or a home win versus Louisville) like crazy hoping we just knocked them off the national title hunt, but not being part of it... sucks.

It will be the easiest thing if they turned the corner in Hubert was realistically able to turn this thing around... I just don't see it. The Carolina fans that I know black and white, either support him in hopes that he gets it or have some real concerns.

Look, I do think some of the older people were surprised that they were going to give him a shot and I'm sure that there were some haters... but man that barrier has been broken and we're back to basketball.

Do you really think he would have this many haters if we were good consistently and the play on the court was more aesthetically pleasing?

I'm sure those people exist, but he's wildly and inconsistent while Scheyer(his closest comp) seems to be building a power house over there.

He's had some great wins... but there have been more embarrassing and/or head scratching moments in this period of time that I can remember.

For the Carolina fans that I know who want him out, its that... many of us are black.

Why do you feel that this season isn't the turnaround you've been looking for? That's what I don't get. We have a great record against ranked teams, we're on track to jump in our tournament seedings despite some key injuries, we're off to a good start on recruiting and Hubert has made, imo, some serious coaching strides. It looks to me like what we've been hoping for. So now, you want to burn the whole thing down, alienate a large portion of the fan base, look ridiculous and be ridiculed by about two thirds of the sports world just to start over with a new system, a new coach and who knows what kind of roster to go through a rebuilding period again? I could understand if this team was covered in flop sweat but now? I just don't get it.

If we can keep this great. I think Caleb is a generational player... and Cubert has been good every other season and this is the up season.

1) do you expect this team to make the final four?(every team doesn't have to make the final score of course)

2) next year looks sketchy

3) we paid $14 million and still non expectations for this season or momentum into next

I think he's done a good job this season... but this is not year 1 or 2, it's your five and year six does not look good.

I hope we can take this momentum into next season...and on a good season not get swept by Cal/Stanford/SMU and ,even with injuries, get absolutely throttled by state.

Last year, a team with 4 McDonald's all americans and returning juniors had to br gifted a play in season?

Maybe the roller coaster has stopped, because I really liked last night...but its year 5, not year 2.

 

[heel79]

Completely laughable to claim Hubert is being held to a tougher standard than Dean and Roy. No one acts like Dean and Roy won every game or that every season was perfect. But their overall results until Roy's last two years (the ones that made clear to him that he needed to step away) were so far ahead of Hubert's overall results that it is laughable to even compare them. From 2004-2019 Roy missed the tournament one time, in that anomalous 2010 season where we turned over almost our whole team and then got hammered by injuries. His NCAAT seeds in those seasons, in order, were 6, 1, 3, 1, 1, 1, N/A, 2, 1, 8, 6, 4, 1, 1, 2, 1. And in the postseason, he didn't lose in the first round a single time, until his very last season, and made the E8 or better 8 times in his first 16 years, before the last two bad years that led to a coaching change.

Dean didn't miss the tournament once in his last 23 seasons, and made it to the 2nd round of the tournament or better in each of his last 19. And his seeds in those 23 years were 1, 3, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 2, 8, 1, 4, 1, 1, 2, 6, 1,.

Again, just laughable to suggest Hubert is being held to a tougher standard. If anything he is being held to a far more lenient standard. For 40 years a 6 seed was a down year by UNC standards. Now we have a season where we're currently projected as a 6 seed and people are using words like "superlative" to describe the results. If you want to argue that in the modern era of college bball UNC should accept no longer being an elite program, that's fine. But it blows my mind that anyone would look at the last five seasons and think "why is anyone upset" when they see one season out of four where we were better than an 8 seed in the NCAAT (and are excited that this season we might get a 5 or 6).

It's a different era. Just is.

 

[Calheel]

That run (which lasted half the season)

Ok, we have a very different recollection of 2022. I recall Caleb Love hitting a 3 point shot with 7 seconds to go against Syracuse at the dome that ultimately led to us pulling it out in overtime. That was the next to last game of the regular season. And if Caleb missed that shot, there was a very real chance we were going to miss the NCAA tournament. And that was a 16-17 Syracuse team. Not someone that should have posed a challenge at home in a must-win spot.

That team turned it on @Duke, but was very much a classic inconsistent Hubert team before that.

 

[CarolinaFever]

Far be it from me to play devil's advocate in this discussion, but this year we've brought in a GM, brought in an analytics team, spent 14+ million on talent (one of the top spenders), we have a fringe first-rounder, a returning senior leader, the best freshmen we've had in 25+ years, a coaching staff in year five, and yet prior to CW going down we were playing like a border-line top 25 team. With all of those added supports, our metrics were worse than HD's average over his time at the helm, not by much, but worse. I just don't see how anyone can think that it's going to suddenly get a whole lot better than what we've seen from him and his staff - some very high highs, a few more very low lows, and a ton of mediocrity (by UNC standards). If what you've seen so far is enough for you, cool, but if not, I don't understand why you'd not want to go ahead and make the change. Does anyone honestly have confidence that next year is going see UNC at/near the top of the leaderboard - in year 6, at UNC, I think that would be the expectation.

Having said all of that, there is some season left, some more opportunities for HD/staff to show that they've truly turned the corner and will be able to get UNC back to their historical seat at the table. I just have very little faith that they'll be able to do it.

You said it with the very high highs and some very low lows. It's the consistency that has me doubting. Not just from season to season, either, but also during the seasons.

 

[CarolinaFever]

It's a different era. Just is.

Not this again. Other programs have been able to be more consistent in this "different era." That is just a bad excuse for settling for mediocrity.

 

[CarolinaFever]

2021-22 was a pretty awful 2/3 of the season (from the start through the disastrous home loss against Pitt which probably put us on the outside looking in for the NCAAT) followed by an amazing last five games of the regular season plus the postseason. Second place in the ACC meant very little that season, as Duke was the only other ACC team who got an NCAAT seed higher than 10th.

The 2 games on the west coast were not the only issue for this year's team; it was a terrible 5-game stretch in which we went 2-3 with two unimpressive home wins vs Wake and FSU and three ugly losses where the defense was a disaster. And the net sum of the season has us at #30 in KenPom, which is certainly nowhere in the ballpark of being "superlative." You act like we have been a top-10 team outside of two games, which is absolutely not the case.

Completely laughable to claim Hubert is being held to a tougher standard than Dean and Roy. No one acts like Dean and Roy won every game or that every season was perfect. But their overall results until Roy's last two years (the ones that made clear to him that he needed to step away) were so far ahead of Hubert's overall results that it is laughable to even compare them. From 2004-2019 Roy missed the tournament one time, in that anomalous 2010 season where we turned over almost our whole team and then got hammered by injuries. His NCAAT seeds in those seasons, in order, were 6, 1, 3, 1, 1, 1, N/A, 2, 1, 8, 6, 4, 1, 1, 2, 1. And in the postseason, he didn't lose in the first round a single time, until his very last season, and made the E8 or better 8 times in his first 16 years, before the last two bad years that led to a coaching change.

Dean didn't miss the tournament once in his last 23 seasons, and made it to the 2nd round of the tournament or better in each of his last 19. And his seeds in those 23 years were 1, 3, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 2, 8, 1, 4, 1, 1, 2, 6, 1,.

Again, just laughable to suggest Hubert is being held to a tougher standard. If anything he is being held to a far more lenient standard. For 40 years a 6 seed was a down year by UNC standards. Now we have a season where we're currently projected as a 6 seed and people are using words like "superlative" to describe the results. If you want to argue that in the modern era of college bball UNC should accept no longer being an elite program, that's fine. But it blows my mind that anyone would look at the last five seasons and think "why is anyone upset" when they see one season out of four where we were better than an 8 seed in the NCAAT (and are excited that this season we might get a 5 or 6).

 

[PTOHeel]

It's hard to conceive of a scenario where we beat dook, UK, KU, UVA, Ville, and tOSU, are 10-5 in conference, 22-6 overall, and fans are begrudgingly saying maybe he's bought himself another season...

I agree with your underlying sentiment. Unfortunately, it's not hard to conceive this scenario. This is world we live in and what I've come to expect.

 

[rodoheel]

It's a different era. Just is.

So we'll put you down as one who thinks UNC should no longer aspire to be an elite program. But that is an argument that our standards should be lower than they used to be, not that Hubert is being held to a tougher standard than his predecessors, which as I said is laughable.

Different era or not, some programs are managing to be consistently good. Houston. Arizona, UConn, Purdue, and unfortunately Duke are some examples. I would love to hear your take on why they are able to be successful in a new era but we are not, and should not expect to be.

 

[donbosco]

Completely laughable to claim Hubert is being held to a tougher standard than Dean and Roy. No one acts like Dean and Roy won every game or that every season was perfect. But their overall results until Roy's last two years (the ones that made clear to him that he needed to step away) were so far ahead of Hubert's overall results that it is laughable to even compare them. From 2004-2019 Roy missed the tournament one time, in that anomalous 2010 season where we turned over almost our whole team and then got hammered by injuries. His NCAAT seeds in those seasons, in order, were 6, 1, 3, 1, 1, 1, N/A, 2, 1, 8, 6, 4, 1, 1, 2, 1. And in the postseason, he didn't lose in the first round a single time, until his very last season, and made the E8 or better 8 times in his first 16 years, before the last two bad years that led to a coaching change.

Dean didn't miss the tournament once in his last 23 seasons, and made it to the 2nd round of the tournament or better in each of his last 19. And his seeds in those 23 years were 1, 3, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 2, 8, 1, 4, 1, 1, 2, 6, 1,.

Again, just laughable to suggest Hubert is being held to a tougher standard. If anything he is being held to a far more lenient standard. For 40 years a 6 seed was a down year by UNC standards. Now we have a season where we're currently projected as a 6 seed and people are using words like "superlative" to describe the results. If you want to argue that in the modern era of college bball UNC should accept no longer being an elite program, that's fine. But it blows my mind that anyone would look at the last five seasons and think "why is anyone upset" when they see one season out of four where we were better than an 8 seed in the NCAAT (and are excited that this season we might get a 5 or 6).

Not going to dig into this fight but I don't think you want to look back at Coach Smith's first 5 years as head coach.