Hubert Davis Catch-all

[uncjhodges]

Because Matt D left the cupboard stocked, ironically. Other than Marvin, the 05 championship was won by players Matt recruited.

And other than Brady Manek, The 22 iron 5 was left by Roy

 

[Calheel]

I see he was 22-13, 9-7. And 22-12, 9-7 his last two years at Kentucky

And won a national championship.

And amazingly, Kentucky was still able to recruit after firing its first black coach when that was still a somewhat unusual thing.

 

[uncjhodges]

I see he was 22-13, 9-7. And 22-12, 9-7 his last two years at Kentucky

Lost in double overtime in the Elite 8 the year before that as a 2 seed.

 

[akillesheel]

Because Matt D left the cupboard stocked, ironically. Other than Marvin, the 05 championship was won by players Matt recruited.

I'm not sure that roster was all that much more talented than the one HD was left, relatively speaking. At the very least, the gap is not so much IMO that it makes up for the coaching job necessary to un-teach whatever Doherty was doing from a technical standpoint and turn those players into winners.

 

[akillesheel]

I see he was 22-13, 9-7. And 22-12, 9-7 his last two years at Kentucky

the question was "26 wins a year," not "a 26-win season."

 

[superrific]

And other than Brady Manek, The 22 iron 5 was left by Roy

Brady was obviously more important to the NCAA tourney success than was Marvin.

But I don't think that matters. I was making an observation. As bad as Matt was, he did recover a little from the bottoming out. It was Matt who was left with a shit sandwich by Gut after the first year. Matt's problem was that none of the guys he recruited would have stayed unless he went.

 

[heel79]

And won a national championship.

And amazingly, Kentucky was still able to recruit after firing its first black coach when that was still a somewhat unusual thing.

So you were wrong. They did not fire him after he won 26 games but did after he lost 25 in two years.

 

[superrific]

I'm not sure that roster was all that much more talented than the one HD was left, relatively speaking. At the very least, the gap is not so much IMO that it makes up for the coaching job necessary to un-teach whatever Doherty was doing from a technical standpoint and turn those players into winners.

Wait, what? Felton, May and McCants were all lottery picks. Jawad had two cups of coffee in the NBA. Jackie was one of our better role players.

The team HD inherited had zero players ever drafted. Caleb Love is getting a cup of coffee in the league, but it will probably not surprise you that he's shooting 39% from the field and will not be there for long.

The talent Roy was left was vastly superior than the talent HD was left.

 

[uncjhodges]

So you were wrong. They did not fire him after he won 26 games but did after he lost 25 in two years.

What are you talking about? You asked if anyone fired a coach after winning 25 games a year. Someone answered it immediately with Tubby Smith. I hope you’re just arguing in bad faith, bc every time someone answers one of your questions you basically ignore it and come up with something else

 

[finesse]

Roy took over a team from Matt Doherty, how on Earth is that a better starting point than taking over from Roy?! I will grant you Guthridge.

Roy's first team.

Rashad McCants, Sean May, Raymond Felton, Jawad Williams, Jackie Manuel, Melvin Scott, David Noel,

Davis's first team

• Core Roster: The team was led by Armando Bacot, Caleb Love, RJ Davis, Brady Manek, and Leaky Black.

Which team would you take in a best of seven?

 

[heel79]

What are you talking about? You asked if anyone fired a coach after winning 25 games a year. Someone answered it immediately with Tubby Smith. I hope you’re just arguing in bad faith, bc every time someone answers one of your questions you basically ignore it and come up with something else

I misunderstood and corrected with an edit. Calm.down.

 

[Calheel]

So you were wrong. They did not fire him after he won 26 games but did after he lost 25 in two years.

No, you just misinterpreted what I wrote. He averaged 26 wins a year for 10 years and they fired him after that.

You asked if anyone had ever been fired after winning an average of 25 games year with no scandals. I answered your question.

 

[Icky Mettle]

Someone name any basketball coach, any color, fired after averaging 25 wins with no seasons under 20 wins. Free of scandal.

As I mentioned earlier, and as others have pointed out, I don’t think focusing on that 25 wins per season is meaningful by itself. But if you are going to focus on that with regard to your question in the quoted post, you also need to consider that more games are played nowadays than there used to be. You can go back only about 20 years to find substantially similar regular season schedules in terms of number of games. And a lot of those games that have been added to the schedule include games against so-called cupcakes.

You also have to take into account the program. The vast majority of D1 programs out there would be more than happy with achieving the results that Hubert has achieved. But UNC isn’t just any D1 program. Standards are extremely high. There are only a handful of programs you can compare.

 

[SnoopRob]

I asked @SnoopRob when he was in school because I was wondering what his most basic undergrad experience might have been. We all have one. I've got grad school to figure in as well (and I went to grad school for a looooong time and lived in the UNC bubble even longer...essentially 1976 until 2008). Of course I was a Carolina fan as far back as I can remember (Charlie Scott days).

Snoop was here for...


95-96 21-11, 10-6(3rd) ncaa second round exit
96-97 28-7, 11-5(2nd) ncaa Final Four
Guthridge takes over
97-98 34-4, 13-3(2nd) Final Four
98-99 24-10, 10-6(3rd) ncaa first round exit

I was here for...

76-77 28-5, 9-3(1st) ncaa runner-up
77-78 23-8, 9-3(1st) ncaa first round
78-79 23-6, 9-3(T-1st) ncaa second round
79-80 21-8, 9-5(T-2nd) ncaa second round

Not speaking for Snoop at all but for me I think those four years did a lot to shape my sense of Carolina basketball even though it was a religious experience I was already enveloped by when I arrived on campus in August of '76.

That first year when an injury-plagued and badly hobbled team went to the Final game and lost seems to have solidified in me an already existing love for every player on the roster and the chance that they might step-up (It was Kuester that shone during that NCAA tournament, not Phil Ford nor Walter Davis, in my remembering of things). But those other three years would qualify around here (adjusting for changing times is difficult I know) as only "good" ones.

Snoop's ride as an undergrad is a bit wilder even with two Final Fours sandwiched by a second round and a first round exit from the tournament and the sudden retirement of Coach Smith.

I don't know what I'm really trying to say here -- just searching for some perspective.

I looked at what you posted and here's the part that I think is missing that expresses my biggest issue with the HD Era.

Even in the years you post from your and my time in CH, we were largely considered a top team nationally. Even the "bad" years we were still ranked and rarely were there really multiple "bad" years in a row.

That has not been the case for the program under HD, for whom inconsistency is a significant issue.

(Notes: In the 1977 & 1978 NCAATs, the tourneys were not fully seeded and Carolina had no seed. The Coaches Poll does a post-NCAAT poll and the AP does not, which explains the large split in the final 2021-2022 polls. The numbers for 2025-2026 season are now current as of the polls released today.)

Year	AP	Coaches	NCAAT Seed
76-77	5	3	-
77-78	16	10	-
78-79	9	3	1
79-80	15	15	3
95-96	25	24	6
96-97	4	4	1
97-98	1	3	1
98-99	13	18	3
21-22	Unranked	2	8
22-23	Unranked	Unranked	Missed Tournament
23-24	7	6	1
24-25	Unranked	Unranked	11
25-26	16	20	TBD

 

[finesse]

As I mentioned earlier, and as others have pointed out, I don’t think focusing on that 25 wins per season is meaningful by itself. But if you are going to focus on that with regard to your question in the quoted post, you also need to consider that more games are played nowadays than there used to be. You can go back only about 20 years to find substantially similar regular season schedules in terms of number of games. And a lot of those games that have been added to the schedule include games against so-called cupcakes.

Let's note that there is a hell of a lot difference in what a "cupcake" is these days with the expansion of the game worldwide and growing numbers of foreign players. Add that to NIL and talent is a lot more evenly distributed and so are coaching skills. A lot more of those cupcakes can ambush you.

 

[heel79]

Let's note that there is a hell of a lot difference in what a "cupcake" is these days with the expansion of the game worldwide and growing numbers of foreign players. Add that to NIL and talent is a lot more evenly distributed and so are coaching skills. A lot more of those cupcakes can ambush you.

This is a huge point. So much parity. Toss in portal, nil.

 

[SnoopRob]

You also have to take into account the program. The vast majority of D1 programs out there would be more than happy with achieving the results that Hubert has achieved. But UNC isn’t just any D1 program. Standards are extremely high. There are only a handful of programs you can compare.

I wish this could be somehow written into the banner on this thread so that it doesn't have to be reposted every few pages.

We're North Carolina. We're a top 2/3 program in the history of CBB. What 97% of other programs would do has almost no bearing on us.

 

[superrific]

Roy's first team.

Rashad McCants, Sean May, Raymond Felton, Jawad Williams, Jackie Manuel, Melvin Scott, David Noel,

Davis's first team

• Core Roster: The team was led by Armando Bacot, Caleb Love, RJ Davis, Brady Manek, and Leaky Black.

Which team would you take in a best of seven?

I think the 05 group could spot the 22 group 3 games and give 22 a free 15 points to start game 4, and still win.

 

[donbosco]

I looked at what you posted and here's the part that I think is missing that expresses my biggest issue with the HD Era.

Even in the years you post from your and my time in CH, we were largely considered a top team nationally. Even the "bad" years we were still ranked and rarely were there really multiple "bad" years in a row.

That has not been the case for the program under HD, for whom inconsistency is a significant issue.

(Notes: In the 1977 & 1978 NCAATs, the tourneys were not fully seeded and Carolina had no seed. The Coaches Poll does a post-NCAAT poll and the AP does not, which explains the large split in the final 2021-2022 polls. The numbers for 2025-2026 season are current as of right now, although new polls should come out today.)

Year	AP	Coaches	NCAAT Seed
76-77	5	3	-
77-78	16	10	-
78-79	9	3	1
79-80	15	15	3
95-96	25	24	6
96-97	4	4	1
97-98	1	3	1
98-99	13	18	3
21-22	Unranked	2	8
22-23	Unranked	Unranked	Missed Tournament
23-24	7	6	1
24-25	Unranked	Unranked	11
25-26	11	13	TBD

I get you Snoop but I have to wonder if, given the multiple statistical categories and ratings and rankings extant today how all of those rankings and seedings might have been influenced 'back in the day?' Of course I know that Coach Smith was the master of the statistics and perhaps his teams might even have been more highly rated than they were?

I hesitated to compare for exactly those reasons and maybe I should not have...but then again, that's what's going on --- is actually the main theme -- of this thread and the discussion that underlies it.

 

[uncjhodges]

I think the 05 group could spot the 22 group 3 games and give 22 a free 15 points to start game 4, and still win.

idk, Ray looked pretty out of shape during gameday…