I just got a new roof for my house for free

[douglas]

Super you might want to do a little research. The solar industry really began in the US after several states adopted portfolio standards. These are requirements by the government for utilities to produce a certain percentage of power from renewable sources. California, Nevada, etc. did as well.

https://emp.lbl.gov/projects/renewables-portfolio

Renewable portfolio standards in the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Here is the first rule in North Carolina

North Carolina's Clean Energy and Energy Efficiency Portfolio Standard (CEPS), originally established as a Renewable Energy and Energy Efficiency Portfolio Standard (REPS) by Senate Bill 3 in August 2007, requires all investor-owned utilities in the state to supply 12.5% of 2020 retail electricity sales (in North Carolina) from eligible energy resources by 2021. Municipal utilities and electric cooperatives must meet a target of 10% renewables by 2018 and are subject to slightly different rules. In February 2008, the North Carolina Utilities Commission (NCUC) issued an order adopting final rules to implement the CEPS.

Since NC has little wind resources, except offshore, this meant solar. Until recently all the solar projects in North Carolina were privately owned and the power company purchased the power with a power purchase agreement. Duke is now developing some projects directly. These power purchase agreement allowed the owner to obtain project financing. Generally a bank or insurance company would provide the financing for the tax credits. Previously the state provided a 35% tax credit (expired now) to go with the 30% federal. The amount of state tax credit on a 10 or 15 million project required a heck of a state tax liability to make it work, which is why only very big corp. were involved. The builder would retain the OM cost for the revenues. This is how we got so many solar farms in North Carolina. The utilities did not want this at first but are now going along as that can pass the cost along to their customers.

This was our project in Nevada utilizing solar thermal energy. PV has gotten so cheap these type projects are hard to make work now

Nevada Solar One - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Just like NC this started from portfolio standards in Nevada, then an RFP process, then a power purchase agreement, then financing/joint venture. Many states have dropped portfolio standards now and gone to other incentives. If you every wonder why NC was one of the leading solar producing states, this is why. It was required by law for a long time.

I am a finance guy and couldn't tell you anything much about installation of panels. Calm down. I understand you are playing the cards you were given and that is fine if you are happy with your decision. As a political board i wanted to address that broader issue of roof top solar and net metering. Both of which are silly.

Net Metering is like taking your left over tomatoes from the back yard and going to the farmers market and making the farmer with a truck load of tomatoes buy them and the same price they are selling. Net metering is either required by law. or the utility commission. I seriously doubt any utility wants them outside a little coop. And the economic don't really matter when you can shift the cost to someone else who has to choice buy to pay.

Edit a lot of roof top solar in California is designed to keep the frig and freezer running when there are/or were black outs

Try being civil

Edit regarding workers, many construction companies us this program for labor.

H-2B & Green Card Immigration for Construction Workers | Jeelani Law Firm

Jeelani Law Firm helps US clients hire foreign construction workers through H-2B Temporary Worker Visas and EB-3 Visas (Green Card).

www.jeelani-law.com

They generally stay 9 months and have to return home for 3. Then they come back for another 9 to the same contractor for the same work.

• The top five H-2B visa issuance countries in FY 2022 Mexico – 67.8 % Jamaica – 10.3 % Guatemala – 5.0 % Honduras – 3.6 % El Salvador 3.4

 

[douglas]

When they don't need it?

They do need it. It saves them from buying power from generation utilities.

Good Lord it's not hard

Too much solar? How California found itself with an unexpected energy challenge

The state is, at times, producing more energy than it can use. That has led it to explore storage options and trim financial incentives.

www.nbcnews.com

“We get into certain times of the year, in the springtime particularly, when the demand for electricity isn’t that high yet, and we have quite a bit of solar production where, under certain conditions, we actually have more than California can actually use,” said Elliot Mainzer, the CEO of California’s Independent System Operator, which manages 80% of the state’s electricity flow.

When you break it down by communities, districts, substations etc. the very local supply vs. demand so to speak There is a lot of power being paid for and not used. The utilities has no say in where roof top solar goes in.

 

[altmin]

The main benefit of a battery is backup in a power outage. Reason being is that otherwise, the power you get billed is really just:

Power generated - power used = money back ( or if negative it's money owed)

Your system is just connected to the grid. So the actual power you use, whether it's from your panels or from the utility, doesn't really matter. So batteries help for backup instead of a generator. They cost a lot more but we opted for the battery because we were already doing the system.

Our solar installer talked us out of batteries saying they were not worth the cost. This was about 10 years ago though. I am guessing things have changed a bit since then. I will probably get batteries eventually, the question is wait for the whole system to hit its expiration point or do it before then. Nova Scotia has been taking more hits from hurricanes and tropical storms with climate change and I fear our snowy winters might turn into icy winters eventually, which means more power outages coming. I have a generator hookup for the house, but it's a pain to lug it out there, keep it maintained, store it etc for something that can't power the entire house. The idea of batteries is very appealing, especially since they will enable the solar use in daytime by routing the grid cut off switch further back in the system so i can use my damn solar panels when the grid is down.

 

[bassydude77]

The main benefit of a battery is backup in a power outage. Reason being is that otherwise, the power you get billed is really just:

Power generated - power used = money back ( or if negative it's money owed)

Your system is just connected to the grid. So the actual power you use, whether it's from your panels or from the utility, doesn't really matter. So batteries help for backup instead of a generator. They cost a lot more but we opted for the battery because we were already doing the system.

Our batteries also provide power during the day. They are constantly charging (from excess PV) and then drawing down at night when the PV isn't providing electricity. The Tesla batteries are pretty slick. The app gets weather updates so if there is an issued storm warning they'll automatically charge to 100% and not draw down until the weather system passes.
We also installed a Span electric panel (which admittedly is overkill and mostly good marketing), but it allows us to prioritize loads in the event of a power loss. Essentially, this just means I don't have to walk to the panel to shutoff certain circuits. It also calculates remaining power based on what circuits are live, so you can decide what to run based on how much power is being drawn.

 

[aGDevil2k]

Our batteries also provide power during the day. They are constantly charging (from excess PV) and then drawing down at night when the PV isn't providing electricity. The Tesla batteries are pretty slick. The app gets weather updates so if there is an issued storm warning they'll automatically charge to 100% and not draw down until the weather system passes.
We also installed a Span electric panel (which admittedly is overkill and mostly good marketing), but it allows us to prioritize loads in the event of a power loss. Essentially, this just means I don't have to walk to the panel to shutoff certain circuits. It also calculates remaining power based on what circuits are live, so you can decide what to run based on how much power is being drawn.

Oh that is cool. We have 2 panels, so our battery connects into one. When they set it all up next week, we are moving the big things (AC, heater, pool stuff) to the other panel so at least when the power goes out, we will have lights, fridge, fans, etc. Can survive without the heat/AC as long as air can move.

I did see the stuff on the app, so that will be cool. And yeah it can draw down over night and then deplete before sunrise. I am just saying for ultimate cost calculations, it doesn't really save much (for our utility) unless you are with a rated utility system, etc. The way ours will be set up, the AC/heater, etc will never run off solar - but the excess from the rest of the house will cover that use. I had no idea that's how it worked until we looked into this.

 

[superrific]

Super you might want to do a little research. The solar industry really began in the US after several states adopted portfolio standards. These are requirements by the government for utilities to produce a certain percentage of power from renewable sources. California, Nevada, etc. did as well.

Here is the first rule in North Carolina

North Carolina's Clean Energy and Energy Efficiency Portfolio Standard (CEPS), originally established as a Renewable Energy and Energy Efficiency Portfolio Standard (REPS) by Senate Bill 3 in August 2007, requires all investor-owned utilities in the state to supply 12.5% of 2020 retail electricity sales (in North Carolina) from eligible energy resources by 2021. Municipal utilities and electric cooperatives must meet a target of 10% renewables by 2018 and are subject to slightly different rules. In February 2008, the North Carolina Utilities Commission (NCUC) issued an order adopting final rules to implement the CEPS.

Since NC has little wind resources, except offshore, this meant solar. Until recently all the solar projects in North Carolina were privately owned and the power company purchased the power with a power purchase agreement. Duke is now developing some projects directly.

Why are you telling me to do research when you are just repeating what I wrote? Did you either not read or not understand the words I typed?

1. Here's what I wrote yesterday.

"My electricity provider made the decision as to rooftop or utility scale solar. They have been given a renewable energy mandate. They have decided that rooftop solar is a useful way to meet those requirements, perhaps because utility scale solar isn't feasible here. Whatever the reason, I'm quite positive that the power company understands its finances better than you or me."

This is EXACTLY what you are describing here with the CEPS. The legislature created a renewables mandate, and left it to the utilities to decide how to implement it. As you say, some utilities went with solar farms (probably all did, to varying degrees); some went with rooftop solar. The point is that the state left it to the utilities to decide how to meet the mandate.

So when you wrote "No those decision are almost always made by legislatures and public utility commissions," you were wrong. Your post above admits that you were wrong. That's fine. There's nothing embarrassing about being wrong, except maybe when you are going at someone else. Here's a tip. If you're conversing with me, and there's a time when you want to type, "no you're wrong" -- well, that's a good time to reassess your position or at least double-check to make sure you are fully grasping the conversation. It's not that I'm never wrong. I am sometimes mistaken, but I'm right a lot more often than I'm wrong (and I'm very rarely completely wrong). Also, I ALWAYS do research before I post anything of substance. Sometimes that research has been done a long time ago (for instance, I don't need to "research" corporate law; I know it); sometimes that research is recent. If you're telling me to "do a little research," you're very likely on the wrong path. Now again, maybe I haven't done the right type of research, or not enough of it, or maybe there's something I've missed. That's always possible. If you want to point out those areas, I'm always glad to hear.

2. This conversation got started with your claim that utility based solar was a much better use of money than rooftop. One of my points was that the utility could have used solar farms, as in your example. But it didn't. It has chosen to go with rooftop (well, it might also have a few solar farms -- idk. There's also some wind here). So obviously the utility disagrees with you on the value of rooftop solar versus utility-scale solar, which was another of my points.

You see, these policies did not spring out of mid-air back in 2007. I will make a separate thread on that. But the market is allowed to choose how to fulfill the electricity mandates, and it has chosen to include rooftop solar in the mix. Maybe that's because the tax incentives were/are skewed. If that's your argument, then make it and I'll consider it. I will freely admit right now that I don't know the details about the state tax incentives and how they apply to renewable mandates. I know plenty about taxes in general, and finance and economics, but not the specific tax policies here.

3. I'm really not understanding your position here, now that you've said that PV costs are so low that big solar farms are uneconomical. Before, you said utility-scale solar is the way to go. Now you're saying that they are uneconomical. I don't get it.

 

[superrific]

As a political board i wanted to address that broader issue of roof top solar and net metering. Both of which are silly.

Net Metering is like taking your left over tomatoes from the back yard and going to the farmers market and making the farmer with a truck load of tomatoes buy them and the same price they are selling. Net metering is either required by law. or the utility commission. I seriously doubt any utility wants them outside a little coop. And the economic don't really matter when you can shift the cost to someone else who has to choice buy to pay.

Edit a lot of roof top solar in California is designed to keep the frig and freezer running when there are/or were black outs

Try being civil

Edit regarding workers, many construction companies us this program for labor.

H-2B & Green Card Immigration for Construction Workers | Jeelani Law Firm

Jeelani Law Firm helps US clients hire foreign construction workers through H-2B Temporary Worker Visas and EB-3 Visas (Green Card).

www.jeelani-law.com

They generally stay 9 months and have to return home for 3. Then they come back for another 9 to the same contractor for the same work.

• The top five H-2B visa issuance countries in FY 2022 Mexico – 67.8 % Jamaica – 10.3 % Guatemala – 5.0 % Honduras – 3.6 % El Salvador 3.4

1. Nothing you said here substantiates the claim that roof top solar is silly.
2. Net metering is not the law where I live. It used to be, I think, but we have a distributed generation program. That gets around the problem of the utility having to buy and sell power at the same price. Do you have anything to say about distributed generation? Is it possible that maybe you don't actually know how renewable mandates work in all states, and that your NC-specific knowledge is NC-specific?

There are a lot of ways that attorneys can be frustrating. I was a much better law professor than practicing attorney because I loathe a lot of what practicing attorneys do (and the way the legal community thinks things should be done). But attorneys are at least good at saying, "this is how it works here. It might work differently in a different state." I don't think you should try to think like a lawyer, but at least absorb that one lesson. Lots of policies vary at the state level.

3. Thank you for the information about the construction workers. I had long ago forgotten about H2B visas, probably because I spent a lot of time wrangling with my ex-wife's H1B visa. It helps me understand the issue a little more. See, when people more knowledgeable than me about a topic give me information, I process it and learn, if possible.

I'm pretty sure the crew leader, of my roofing crew who is a subcontractor, is here year round. Don't know his visa status, obviously, because I won't ask. Maybe some of his crew are here on H2-Bs?

Ultimately, my point was that migrants from the south are actually really good for our economy. They fill holes in the labor market that would otherwise stay empty, to the detriment of Americans everywhere. I hate all the xenophobia so much. Good people are good people. The vast majority of migrants are like my roofers, not like the criminals who get scapegoated by narratives and photo ops.

 

[douglas]

I asked you a couple time what state but you won't answer. I am not an expert in every state but i am in most. Without knowing the state i have to speak in generalities. Generally speaking roof top solar is good for a few and costly for everyone else like the poor. And some utilities simply do what the politician want them to and not what make sense, again they can pass the waste along. Economics, efficiency, etc. often give way to politics as in NC See spiraling power bills

 

[mpaer]

I asked you a couple time what state but you won't answer. I am not a expert in every state but i am in most

She did answer such a question I read it
She said she choses not to say because she shares a lot of things that she does not want traced back to her

 

[douglas]

There are only a handful of states that are not net meter.
3. I'm really not understanding your position here, now that you've said that PV costs are so low that big solar farms are uneconomical. Before, you said utility-scale solar is the way to go. Now you're saying that they are uneconomical. I don't get it.

I was referring to that specific plant which is based on solar thermal technology (fluid heating) utility scale projects. Now we have PV utility scale projects with much cheaper panels, that dominate. In the 90's they were competing technologies

Ultimately, my point was that migrants from the south are actually really good for our economy. They fill holes in the labor market that would otherwise stay empty, to the detriment of Americans everywhere

Nice that there is a legal way to do it and has been for a long time.

 

[superrific]

There are only a handful of states that are not net meter.
3. I'm really not understanding your position here, now that you've said that PV costs are so low that big solar farms are uneconomical. Before, you said utility-scale solar is the way to go. Now you're saying that they are uneconomical. I don't get it.

I was referring to that specific plant which is based on solar thermal technology (fluid heating) utility scale projects. Now we have PV utility scale projects with much cheaper panels, that dominate. In the 90's they were competing technologies

OK fair enough. I didn't realize you were talking with such specificity.

 

[stankeylegjones]

She did answer such a question I read it
She said she choses not to say because she shares a lot of things that she does not want traced back to her

Did super transition?

 

[superrific]

There are only a handful of states that are not net meter.
3. I'm really not understanding your position here, now that you've said that PV costs are so low that big solar farms are uneconomical. Before, you said utility-scale solar is the way to go. Now you're saying that they are uneconomical. I don't get it.

I was referring to that specific plant which is based on solar thermal technology (fluid heating) utility scale projects. Now we have PV utility scale projects with much cheaper panels, that dominate. In the 90's they were competing technologies

Ultimately, my point was that migrants from the south are actually really good for our economy. They fill holes in the labor market that would otherwise stay empty, to the detriment of Americans everywhere

Nice that there is a legal way to do it and has been for a long time.

Is 14 a handful?

 

[aGDevil2k]

Is net metering by state or by utility?

 

[aGDevil2k]

Finished!!

Waiting on the power company to switch the meter to two way flow and then we can turn it on

 

[Rock]

Looks great!

 

[superrific]

Is net metering by state or by utility?

Can be either, depending on the state.

 

[finesse]

You need to check your specific situation before you can be sure you can sell power back. My son can't because there is a a limit on the amount Progress Energy can buy back in an area and he shares his with a solar farm. He has enough storage that it's normally just a small loss if any. However it has kept him from expanding to completely cover his bill and ours.

 

[aGDevil2k]

You need to check your specific situation before you can be sure you can sell power back. My son can't because there is a a limit on the amount Progress Energy can buy back in an area and he shares his with a solar farm. He has enough storage that it's normally just a small loss if any. However it has kept him from expanding to completely cover his bill and ours.

Oh that sucks. Ours is already approved. Just awaiting the meter switch.