—> ICE / Immigration / Chaos after another shooting in Minnesota

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akillesheel said:
Trump's "open borders" bullshit stuck exactly because of what I'm saying - Kamala trying to run to Trump's right on immigration by saying she supported a restrictive immigration bill instead of actually fighting the scaremongering, and in doing so implicitly accepting that "open borders" are a problem to be solved. When both sides are acceding this point, of course voters were going to think that Trump's "build a wall" ass was going to solve that problem better. To that point, I'm not "trying to get Trump elected." That's already happened in large part because of the aforementioned pussyfooted rhetoric.

The rest of your comment is a kind of clumsy amalgam of rhetorical and policy disagreement - I'm trying to stay strictly on the side of rhetoric, so I'll say this - It should be very easy to say that deportations happened before ICE, within most voters' lifetimes, and they will continue to happen after it. It should also be easy for a politician to say that they would rather 100 undocumented people, who are still their constituents, go un-deported than a single one of their constituents get shot in the face by the state for doing nothing wrong. And I cannot imagine that "make the Nazi police nicer" is a winning message for anybody who thinks Nazis were, well, bad, even if you think it's an accurate description of intelligence agencies.
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Do you think that my preference would be "make Nazi police nicer"? Seriously? There is little question that Replace ICE >> Abolish ICE.

You seem like a progressive, so I'll be blunt: you don't matter. There is no way to satisfy you without scaring off the more numerous middle centrists who would be terrified by "let 100 undocumented people go free," BECAUSE they don't think they will be the ones shot in the face. And if given a choice between the middle and the Left, the party will choose the middle every time because it wants to win.

So get with the program. If you bad mouth Dems or sit out elections because you don't think the Dems are radical enough, every election will be 2024. Progressives were responsible for Bush winning in 2000, Trump in 2016, and contributed greatly in 2024. All I'm asking is to stop saying shit that will help more fascists get elected. You can think whatever you want. When and if we gain control again, maybe we can talk about "abolishing ICE" (though it's not going to happen). Otherwise, Trump loves you. Think about that.

The idea that "these positions all have majority support among Americans," is a trap and has been for a long time. First, those numbers usually come from push polls with suspicious wording. More importantly, people don't vote on the basis of the issue that is 10th most important to them or 20th most important. Think hypothetically for a minute. Suppose there's a political candidate who has the same positions as you on dozens of issues. He's also for expanding ICE and giving ICE officers absolute immunity. Would you vote for him? I sure as fuck wouldn't, because those minor issues don't matter if he gets the main ones completely wrong. It doesn't matter if people agree with idea X if it's not really important to them.
 
ZenMode said:
Playing devil's advocate.... isn't a bruise technically "internal bleeding"?
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I’ve had the same question and as far as I can tell the answer is yes, especially given their weird initial description of “internal bleeding in the torso”.

But I defer to our medical expert posters for more detail.
 
superrific said:
Do you think that my preference would be "make Nazi police nicer"? Seriously? There is little question that Replace ICE >> Abolish ICE.

You seem like a progressive, so I'll be blunt: you don't matter. There is no way to satisfy you without scaring off the more numerous middle centrists who would be terrified by "let 100 undocumented people go free," BECAUSE they don't think they will be the ones shot in the face. And if given a choice between the middle and the Left, the party will choose the middle every time because it wants to win.

So get with the program. If you bad mouth Dems or sit out elections because you don't think the Dems are radical enough, every election will be 2024. Progressives were responsible for Bush winning in 2000, Trump in 2016, and contributed greatly in 2024. All I'm asking is to stop saying shit that will help more fascists get elected. You can think whatever you want. When and if we gain control again, maybe we can talk about "abolishing ICE" (though it's not going to happen). Otherwise, Trump loves you. Think about that.

The idea that "these positions all have majority support among Americans," is a trap and has been for a long time. First, those numbers usually come from push polls with suspicious wording. More importantly, people don't vote on the basis of the issue that is 10th most important to them or 20th most important. Think hypothetically for a minute. Suppose there's a political candidate who has the same positions as you on dozens of issues. He's also for expanding ICE and giving ICE officers absolute immunity. Would you vote for him? I sure as fuck wouldn't, because those minor issues don't matter if he gets the main ones completely wrong. It doesn't matter if people agree with idea X if it's not really important to them.
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Either progressives do not matter, or they cost Dems elections. You can't have both; they are mutually exclusive propositions. And further, the party should have just seen what "choosing the middle" leads to: 2016 and 2024. So maybe, if the Dems "want to win," they should try having a fucking spine and standing on business about being the pro-people party rather than trying to be Republicans-lite.

Chasing centrists is the trap, man. "Middle centrists" do not meaningfully exist when it comes to Trump; there are just Trump voters separated by how ashamed of themselves they are - Chuck Schumer has said as much, in a hilarious bit of self-unawareness. All that Dems running to the center shows their voter base is that Dems are willing to abandon their actual voters for hypothetical ones who fail to materialize in cycle after cycle.
 


“… The Department of Homeland Security has said an ICE officer shot Julio Cesar Sosa-Celis as he was assaulting the officer “with a shovel or broom stick.” The agency said the incident began when the officer attempted to stop Sosa-Celis in his car, and that Sosa-Celis tried to flee and then got into an altercation with the officer outside, joined by two housemates.

But Sosa-Celis’s mother, citing an account from her son, said DHS had actually been pursuing one of his housemates, who Sosa-Celis let into their house just before the shooting. Alicia Celis said her son made no mention of anyone running from the house to attack ICE officers.

A Facebook Live video reviewed by The Washington Post includes people at the house telling 911 dispatchers that the shooting happened as the men closed the door at the residence. Another video includes Sosa-Celis mentioningsome sort of scuffle before any gunshots were fired, but he does not specify whether that struggle happened at the door or in the street.

Celis, who lives in Venezuela, told The Post that her son called her from the hospital after he was taken into custody by ICE. He told her he had received a panicked call Wednesday evening from Alfredo Alejandro Ajorna, who is one of his housemates and a fellow DoorDash driver, Celis said. Ajorna said he was being pursued by ICE and that he needed Sosa-Celis to let him in the front door of the house, where they and their partners and children and others live.

Sosa-Celis opened the door to let Ajorna inside, Celis said her son told her. Ajorna ran indoors. As Sosa-Celis went to close the door an ICE officer shot him in the leg, his mother said. The men retreated into the house, and people inside called emergency dispatchers, Celis said.…”
 
akillesheel said:
Either progressives do not matter, or they cost Dems elections. You can't have both; they are mutually exclusive propositions. And further, the party should have just seen what "choosing the middle" leads to: 2016 and 2024. So maybe, if the Dems "want to win," they should try having a fucking spine and standing on business about being the pro-people party rather than trying to be Republicans-lite.

Chasing centrists is the trap, man. "Middle centrists" do not meaningfully exist when it comes to Trump; there are just Trump voters separated by how ashamed of themselves they are - Chuck Schumer has said as much, in a hilarious bit of self-unawareness. All that Dems running to the center shows their voter base is that Dems are willing to abandon their actual voters for hypothetical ones who fail to materialize in cycle after cycle.
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Fully agreed. And I didn't always feel this way. But if harassing, assaulting, brutalizing, and/or murdering innocent people is the best ICE can do, then damn right it should be abolished.
 
We live in downtown Richmond and my son texted me this evening that ICE was knocking on doors this afternoon in a mainly minority area just east of downtown. Don’t think it’s a coincidence that Spanberger’s inauguration is tomorrow.
 
RockyMtnHoo said:
We live in downtown Richmond and my son texted me this evening that ICE was knocking on doors this afternoon in a mainly minority area just east of downtown. Don’t think it’s a coincidence that Spanberger’s inauguration is tomorrow.
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Also live in Richmond, just read about ICE presence in Short Pump - that what you're referring to?
 
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