—> ICE / Immigration / Chaos after ICE kills 37 y/o man

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Paine said:
This is the problem. You’re defending an institution you admit shouldn’t exist as it does, letting the right dictate what Democrats can say, and writing off younger voters instead of asking why they don’t trust us. That mindset hasn’t won us anything. In fact, it’s how we got here. I don’t think repeating it is a path out.
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1. I actually think putting ice at airports and borders only is actually reform.

2. Young voters? If I recall you're young. The young voter thing is not new. YOUNG VOTERS DO NOT VOTE. They never go. We didn't as Gen X. The millennials didn't either. Z won't and isn't. Alpha will be doing 67 crap and won't care about it. Good luck trying to change that

3. It will be a long, systematic change to ever get the left near equal footing with the messaging machine the right has. That's a fact. So you have to play the game to win.
 
gtyellowjacket said:
Yes. If you look at the video, it appears to be pulled away by the agent in the grey coat. And when they say he was shot moments after, they mean it. Its less than a second between the agent getting the gun and the first shot.

I didn't hear them say it but someone on here who came up with the theory that someone yelled gun is not a bad guess.
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Unfortunately, it’s almost equally plausible given the systemic unconstitutional actions of ICE agents, that there is an unwritten policy to kill any protestor who carries a firearm.
 
Paine said:
No, it’s to preempt people trying to equate abolishing ICE with abolishing immigration enforcement.
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Would you agree that there are voters who are easily manipulated by right wing media, both traditional and social?

Would you agree that Defund the Police was effectively used by such media to paint Democrats as being in favor of abolishing the police?
 
aGDevil2k said:
1. I actually think putting ice at airports and borders only is actually reform.
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CBP already handles borders and airports. ICE was created for interior enforcement. If you strip that away, you’re admitting the agency has no purpose. That’s abolition by another name. I think we’ve reached the end of the disagreement.
 
Paine said:
Gain footing among whom, exactly? Which voters are you talking about? And what does ‘reform’ actually mean to them in practice?

Because for most voters, ‘reform ICE’ doesn’t describe a concrete outcome, it just sounds like what they’ve heard for years while nothing fundamentally changes.
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We did this a little while ago and I think the general consensus was along the lines of "Replace ICE." Though I suppose "Cleanse ICE" could work too. Or "Exorcise ICE." Bit eggheaded, but the point is there are options.

Going with Abolish ICE is just Defund The Police version 2.0. Defund the Police was a devastating own goal.
 
Paine said:
No one arguing to abolish ICE is arguing to abolish immigration enforcement. That’s a category error. The argument is whether we abolish a rogue agency that has been structurally rotten from the start.

The U.S. enforced immigration law for decades before ICE existed. ICE was created in 2003 as part of the post-9/11 DHS experiment. A militarized interior enforcement arm designed for speed and coercion, not due process.

We can have immigration enforcement in 2026 the same way we did before 2003: through accountable, civilian institutions subject to oversight. ICE is a historical aberration, not some sort of law of nature.
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Yea but nobody knows any of that. They will hear Abolish ICE and be afraid. Remember: these are people who voted for the candidate who said that kids were being dropped off to school and coming back with a sex change operation.
 
BlooVooDoo said:
Would you agree that there are voters who are easily manipulated by right wing media, both traditional and social?

Would you agree that Defund the Police was effectively used by such media to paint Democrats as being in favor of abolishing the police?
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Yes, some voters are manipulated by right-wing media. That’s always been true. That doesn’t mean every slogan or demand is equally risky.

“Defund/abolish the police” was a mistake precisely because police have deep social capital and are widely seen, rightly or wrongly, as a public safety service. ICE doesn’t have that. As I said, ICE is a relatively new, federal interior enforcement agency with little legitimacy and a reputation for abuse. The analogy just doesn’t hold.

IMO, the question isn’t whether the right will try to distort “abolish ICE,” because they’ll distort anything. It’s whether we lose more voters by saying something clearly about an institution people already distrust, or by continuing to hedge and sanitize our own conclusions. From what I’ve seen, the bigger loss comes from the hedging.
 
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