—> ICE / Immigration / Nation grapples with ICE killings

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I haven't read all of this thread so I don't know if this is going to repeat something someone already said. And before I say it, I believe I have built up a body of posts to prove that I am not a professional contrarian like Yellowjacket. But I do every once in a while take a contrarian view when I think it is important to do so.

This is on the Bovino comments about calling ICE names. People have represented this as him saying ICE is killing people because they called him names.

That was not my read of his comments. My read was that he was criticizing politicians and the media for calling ICE Nazis, etc. and that that was flaming tensions and leading to violent confrontations.

ICE doesn't deserve any benefit of the doubt. What they are doing is horrible and comparisons to Nazis are valid. (Valid to some extent. Even a hint of lightly worded criticism of the Nazis or suspicion of listening to foreign radio would get Germans sent to camps so clearly were aren't there yet.). But misrepresenting or taking the most egregious interpretation of statements made by people like Bovino isn't in the left's best interest. It gives the right an opening to say, "See, you guys just misrepresent everything Republicans say."
 
CHAMTRAIN said:
Are you fucking serious? If you see a woman shoved 7 feet to the ground by a man in tactical gear/armed to the teeth you are just going to stand and watch it? The ONLY thing he did was place his body in between the assaulting ICE officer and the woman that was pushed to the ground. You are a disgusting human being.
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Yes, I'm serious. Whether it's local police, state police, FBI or ICE, citizens shouldn't be interfering/intervening.

Do you think it would be a good thing if, for example, citizen were charging at Chauvin and other officers, trying to pull them off of Floyd?
 
ChapelHillSooner said:
I haven't read all of this thread so I don't know if this is going to repeat something someone already said. And before I say it, I believe I have built up a body of posts to prove that I am not a professional contrarian like Yellowjacket. But I do every once in a while take a contrarian view when I think it is important to do so.

This is on the Bovino comments about calling ICE names. People have represented this as him saying ICE is killing people because they called him names.

That was not my read of his comments. My read was that he was criticizing politicians and the media for calling ICE Nazis, etc. and that that was flaming tensions and leading to violent confrontations.

ICE doesn't deserve any benefit of the doubt. What they are doing is horrible and comparisons to Nazis are valid. (Valid to some extent. Even a hint of lightly worded criticism of the Nazis or suspicion of listening to foreign radio would get Germans sent to camps so clearly were aren't there yet.). But misrepresenting or taking the most egregious interpretation of statements made by people like Bovino isn't in the left's best interest. It gives the right an opening to say, "See, you guys just misrepresent everything Republicans say."
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I agree with you. That's how I took Bovino's comments, as well.
 
Callatoroy said:
At what point in a protest should people leave the sidewalks? When does it reach the point of getting close to ICE and getting in the roads or interfering? Does ICE have the authority to arrest people in Minnesota illegally? Protestors should be loud, stay on the sidewalks (out of way), record what’s happening. If you feel they need to do more then you are hoping for more tragedy.
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At what point do conservatives start to oppose a tyrannical government?
Masked, paramilitary troops with complete immunity carrying out extra-judicial killings of citizens would seem to be a stepping-off point.
We welcome the day you make the switch over.
 
1moretimeagain said:
Noem and Bovino have been doing exactly what Trump wants them to do, but at some point he will likely throw them under the bus.
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I don’t think he wants all the blowback and headache but he’s got it so he needs to turn it around by firing them, calming the situation, and putting someone in charge that can perform the duties ICE is tasked with, without killing people, even if perceived by ICE as getting in the way.
 
ChileG said:
At what point do conservatives start to oppose a tyrannical government?
Masked, paramilitary troops with complete immunity carrying out extra-judicial killings of citizens would seem to be a stepping-off point.
We welcome the day you make the switch over.
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Can you imagine going back a decade and telling folks that Democrats would become the party of "don't tread on me" and the Second Amendment, while conservatives would become the party of "papers, please" and "well ACKSHUALLY you can't carry your legally-owned and registered firearm" and "tread harder on me, daddy"?
 
Callatoroy said:
At what point in a protest should people leave the sidewalks? When does it reach the point of getting close to ICE and getting in the roads or interfering? Does ICE have the authority to arrest people in Minnesota illegally? Protestors should be loud, stay on the sidewalks (out of way), record what’s happening. If you feel they need to do more then you are hoping for more tragedy.
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Was the victim of the latest shooting standing in the middle of the road? Not according to the videos. He was off to the side, filming, allowing traffic to drive by unimpeded. ICE does not need to viciously assault people for not being on the sidewalk. This isn’t 1939. Or maybe it is.
 
ZenMode said:
Yes, I'm serious. Whether it's local police, state police, FBI or ICE, citizens shouldn't be interfering/intervening.

Do you think it would be a good thing if, for example, citizen were charging at Chauvin and other officers, trying to pull them off of Floyd?
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Some people instinctively react to injustice even when others might see it (often in retrospect) as a dumb thing to do.
 
Callatoroy said:
This article is very detailed in how organized the professional protesters are and the far left groups behind them. It doesn’t attempt to justify the shooting. It just shows how things get to a point where they can get escalated where bad things can happen. The current mix of ICE + agitated protesters isnt going to solve the problem given the leadership in Minnesota and DHS.

www.foxnews.com

The far-left network that helped put Alex Pretti in harm's way, then made him a martyr

Encrypted chats show activists tracked ICE agents using a sophisticated database before the fatal shooting of Alex Pretti in Minneapolis. They then used it to mobilize agitators.
www.foxnews.com www.foxnews.com
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Did you read paragraphs like this and think "yeah, this looks like a fair and balanced discussion of the protests and protestors"?

Over the following hours, a national network of socialist, communist and Marxist-Leninist cells in the United States leveraged the tragic fatality into a nationwide protest operation. While grief and outrage over Pretti's death is genuine, the network's real-time rapid response, using short sensational video clips and emojis as weapons of propaganda, offers a window into the disciplined logistics, messaging and coordination of far-left warriors fomenting insurgency-like confrontation with authorities.

The Minneapolis activation marked the beginning of an almost instantaneous weekend surge by far-left organizations, including hardened socialist and communist groups operating in an ecosystem that national security experts describe as an insurgent-style operation designed to exploit tragedy to wage a domestic political war.

By early evening, the narrative had coalesced into a chorus of voices within the far-left propaganda apparatus, adopting charged historical language to brand federal officials as Nazi-like figures. At 4:12 p.m. ET, Calla Walsh, a controversial communist activist filmed this past summer in Iran shouting, "Death to America! Death to Israel!" shared a 32-second video showing barricades built with Republic Services dumpsters.

Meanwhile nothing in the article remotely shows that some nefarious network of left-wing propagandists are coordinating all of this to stage "insurgency-like confrontations" with ICE. Instead, you have a first half of the article that shows that some group of people (who the article never identifies) are tracking ICE operations so that people can get there to protest them (there is never even a remote suggestion in any of this that anyone is trying to create violent confrontations with ICE, versus simply filming and protesting what they're doing). Then you have a second half of the article that really has no connection to the first in which they detail how a number of self-proclaimed socialist groups on social media (hilariously referred to at the beginning as "a national network of socialist, communist and Marxist-Leninist cells" as if these groups are secret underground terrorists, rather than just people posting on Twitter) tweeted about the incident and organized protests against the killing and ICE generally. There is no suggestion that any of these groups have anything to do with the people tracking ICE activities and protesting in Minnesota (they likely do not)

Frankly can't believe that you would be so foolish as to give any credence to an article like this - one that laughably accuses the Minnesota protestors as being part of some communist conspiracy to violently take over America and "wage a domestic political war." What exactly do they think the administration and all of its officials accounts (which surely have much greater reach than any of these random "socialist" groups they talk about) are doing when they tweet out provably false narratives about these shootings then send out Vance, Miller, Noem, Bovino, and everyone else to lie about the incident and smear the guy who was killed as a terrorist out to slaughter ICE agents?
 


“it’s a messaging problem” is almost always wrong in politics, but particularly in such a serious matter.
 
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