—> ICE / Immigration / Nation grapples with ICE killings

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At what point do conservatives start to oppose a tyrannical government?
Masked, paramilitary troops with complete immunity carrying out extra-judicial killings of citizens would seem to be a stepping-off point.
We welcome the day you make the switch over.
You make the assumption that people like me are ok with what has happened. Personally im not at all. I do not believe in the immunity they get. However, I very much do believe in the immigration laws we have and in the right of the US to enforce those laws. Which seems to be the difference here. I support the concept of what ice is doing, but not its execution of carrying out that mission. You seem to not support the very idea of enforcing immigration laws. That was an assumption so if that is wrong then you can explain your view on immigration laws.
 
Was the victim of the latest shooting standing in the middle of the road? Not according to the videos. He was off to the side, filming, allowing traffic to drive by unimpeded. ICE does not need to viciously assault people for not being on the sidewalk. This isn’t 1939. Or maybe it is.
Did the incident take place right where he happened to be standing?
 
I don’t think he wants all the blowback and headache but he’s got it so he needs to turn it around by firing them, calming the situation, and putting someone in charge that can perform the duties ICE is tasked with, without killing people, even if perceived by ICE as getting in the way.
Why can’t you just admit Trump is a piece of shit?
 
Yes, I'm serious. Whether it's local police, state police, FBI or ICE, citizens shouldn't be interfering/intervening.

Do you think it would be a good thing if, for example, citizen were charging at Chauvin and other officers, trying to pull them off of Floyd?
Do you think it was a good thing for the many citizens who participated in the Underground Railroad to transport and hide escaped slaves in violation of the law and in defiance of local, state, and federal authorities?

Do you think it was a good thing for many citizens across Germany and the rest of Europe to shelter their Jewish friends and neighbors in defiance of German law and in opposition to the authorities?

Do you think it was a good idea for the Civil Rights-era protestors to stand in defiance of the state and local authorities who turned dogs and water hoses on them?

Is there seriously no situation where you would intervene if you saw something unjust happening, even if under color of law? I suppose that says a lot about your personal character.
 
Two things can be true at the same time.
that's a basic statement. 50 things can be true but they all don't matter.

When you're talking about killing a person, the only thing that our law enforcement should consider are the rules...which are around the threat to their lives and others.

We're back to the basic rape argument... well if a young woman wasn't so attractive she wouldn't get raped! If she covered herself like we're in the Middle East none of this would ever happen.

You throw out these things, but none of them are worthy of the murder conversation.

1) it was apparently legal for him to carry the gun
2) death on the spot is not the punishment for standing in the way of arrest
3) if you have that many agents in control of a human being and they protect themselves from being slammed on the ground... but cause no harm to the office, the officers should not then shoot to kill this person.
 

I agree. It's often the most passionate people who are protesting in the first place and it's not uncommon for peaceful protests to turn in peaceful....

but, in general, citizens shouldn't be intervening/interfering in the what law enforcement is doing with other citizens.
 
At what point in a protest should people leave the sidewalks? When does it reach the point of getting close to ICE and getting in the roads or interfering? Does ICE have the authority to arrest people in Minnesota illegally? Protestors should be loud, stay on the sidewalks (out of way), record what’s happening. If you feel they need to do more then you are hoping for more tragedy.
To be clear, Pretti wasn't at a protest. It was just a normal day.
 
Watching the party that refused to wear masks during the pandemic asking others to “just follow orders” is rich.

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Did you read paragraphs like this and think "yeah, this looks like a fair and balanced discussion of the protests and protestors"?

Over the following hours, a national network of socialist, communist and Marxist-Leninist cells in the United States leveraged the tragic fatality into a nationwide protest operation. While grief and outrage over Pretti's death is genuine, the network's real-time rapid response, using short sensational video clips and emojis as weapons of propaganda, offers a window into the disciplined logistics, messaging and coordination of far-left warriors fomenting insurgency-like confrontation with authorities.

The Minneapolis activation marked the beginning of an almost instantaneous weekend surge by far-left organizations, including hardened socialist and communist groups operating in an ecosystem that national security experts describe as an insurgent-style operation designed to exploit tragedy to wage a domestic political war.

By early evening, the narrative had coalesced into a chorus of voices within the far-left propaganda apparatus, adopting charged historical language to brand federal officials as Nazi-like figures. At 4:12 p.m. ET, Calla Walsh, a controversial communist activist filmed this past summer in Iran shouting, "Death to America! Death to Israel!" shared a 32-second video showing barricades built with Republic Services dumpsters.


Meanwhile nothing in the article remotely shows that some nefarious network of left-wing propagandists are coordinating all of this to stage "insurgency-like confrontations" with ICE. Instead, you have a first half of the article that shows that some group of people (who the article never identifies) are tracking ICE operations so that people can get there to protest them (there is never even a remote suggestion in any of this that anyone is trying to create violent confrontations with ICE, versus simply filming and protesting what they're doing). Then you have a second half of the article that really has no connection to the first in which they detail how a number of self-proclaimed socialist groups on social media (hilariously referred to at the beginning as "a national network of socialist, communist and Marxist-Leninist cells" as if these groups are secret underground terrorists, rather than just people posting on Twitter) tweeted about the incident and organized protests against the killing and ICE generally. There is no suggestion that any of these groups have anything to do with the people tracking ICE activities and protesting in Minnesota (they likely do not)

Frankly can't believe that you would be so foolish as to give any credence to an article like this - one that laughably accuses the Minnesota protestors as being part of some communist conspiracy to violently take over America and "wage a domestic political war." What exactly do they think the administration and all of its officials accounts (which surely have much greater reach than any of these random "socialist" groups they talk about) are doing when they tweet out provably false narratives about these shootings then send out Vance, Miller, Noem, Bovino, and everyone else to lie about the incident and smear the guy who was killed as a terrorist out to slaughter ICE agents?
Marxist-Leninist cells? Was this article written by the John Birch Society? This is an example of a balanced article? What?
 
He is correct. They made things worse.
Seriously, in your opinion the problem is messaging? It’s not the tactics? You are ok with masked, poorly trained agents going around and detaining people based on the color of their skin? Your ok with the administrations stance that they don’t need warrants to barge into people’s homes? Why do we need a paramilitary force deployed to round people up?
 
I agree. It's often the most passionate people who are protesting in the first place and it's not uncommon for peaceful protests to turn in peaceful....

but, in general, citizens shouldn't be intervening/interfering in the what law enforcement is doing with other citizens.
Of course citizen should not be intervening or interfering in what law enforcement is doing with other citizens, but a citizen exercising their constitutional rights to assemble, video record, and legally carry isn’t intervening or interfering. Nor is attempting to help another citizen who has been pushed and has fallen, but who is not being otherwise apprehended. Which is exactly what was happening- per video evidence from multiple sources and multiple angles – when Alex Pretti was murdered.
 
Yes, I'm serious. Whether it's local police, state police, FBI or ICE, citizens shouldn't be interfering/intervening.

Do you think it would be a good thing if, for example, citizen were charging at Chauvin and other officers, trying to pull them off of Floyd?
not to free him but to stop the murder, it would've been better for Floyd, those cops, and our country.

Do we want a whole bunch of people intervening all the time no... but absolutely the killing of our citizens is something that we should not allow law-enforcement to do.

That's not what we pay them to do.
 
I agree. It's often the most passionate people who are protesting in the first place and it's not uncommon for peaceful protests to turn in peaceful....

but, in general, citizens shouldn't be intervening/interfering in the what law enforcement is doing with other citizens.
law-enforcement have to be able to handle that without killing people.
 
Seriously, in your opinion the problem is messaging? It’s not the tactics? You are ok with masked, poorly trained agents going around and detaining people based on the color of their skin? Your ok with the administrations stance that they don’t need warrants to barge into people’s homes? Why do we need a paramilitary force deployed to round people up?
I have stated clearly I disagreed with the method.
 
Well that would just make things worse. Is that what you are hoping for?
Hope left the building weeks ago. I want to see the killers tried, convicted and made to face the wall. I want more protests. Civil disobedience. General strikes. More legally armed voices of resistance. Tool up, Minnesota.

To quote Dalton from Road House, "It'll get worse before it gets better."

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