—> ICE / Immigration / Video from ICE shooter POV released, firestorm ensues

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Calheel said:
That is how I see it, but I've talked to enough really smart, but conservative, people who see something totally different. And when you are dealing with 12 jurors, you are going to get some of those people.

The fucking bitch line, to me, shows animus. OTOH, he will argue that he said that because he perceived the woman as trying to hit him with the car.
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Can you speak to how a few other things might play with a jury, if you think they are relevant at all?:
  • Shots 2 and 3 vs shot 1
  • No other agents drawing a weapon
  • Not allowing volunteer doctor to approach and not providing any emergency care
  • Officer placing himself in front of a running vehicle
 
TangledUpInBlue06 said:
Can you speak to how a few other things might play with a jury, if you think they are relevant at all?:
  • Shots 2 and 3 vs shot 1
  • No other agents drawing a weapon
  • Not allowing volunteer doctor to approach and not providing any emergency care
  • Officer placing himself in front of a running vehicle
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Yeah, I think he's going to get fucked by the no doctor and not calling EMS. And the shots fired location is obviously the prima facie case. Side window is a major problem for him.

My question is whether they will indict the other officers also.
 
Calheel said:
Regardless, this will be a challenging case for the prosecution. You just need one juror to hang, and I think it will be tough to get 12 to convict. But it is certainly a theoretically winnable case.
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That's what people said about Chauvin too. Conservatives were reflexively siding with him too.

Also, the venue will help. Not just because Minneapolis is very liberal, but also because I doubt conservatives in MN are too keen on this. It's one thing for ICE to be shooting people in another place. It's different in your backyard.

You have more experience in court than me, but I think he fucked himself the minute he shared his video.
 
Calheel said:
If the courts are applying precedent faithfully, then he will not have immunity. The problem is that the highest court in the land does not apply precedent faithfully.
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I have difficulty seeing five on SCOTUS interested in whitewashing this. I'd be surprised if they took cert on it. Of course, I've said that before so all bets are off. It's the 8th Circuit that might be more problematic.

That said, wouldn't the immunity decision in this case be made in state court?
 
TangledUpInBlue06 said:
Can you speak to how a few other things might play with a jury, if you think they are relevant at all?:
  • Shots 2 and 3 vs shot 1
  • No other agents drawing a weapon
  • Not allowing volunteer doctor to approach and not providing any emergency care
  • Officer placing himself in front of a running vehicle
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With the caveat that the following does not reflect my views, but how certain jurors would view it:

  • Shots 2 and 3 vs shot 1 -- In a fight or flight situation, it is extremely common for officers to fire multiple shots. You can fire three times in a little over a second. In police shootings, there are almost always multiple shots fired (and there will be expert testimony to that effect). An officer is not going to take one shot and see if that did the trick if they truly believe their life is in danger (and that is going to be the million dollar question for certain jurors).

  • No other agents drawing a weapon -- No other agent was in an allegedly vulnerable position.

  • Not allowing volunteer doctor to approach and not providing any emergency care -- That was a decision by all agents there, not just him. Likely, in a crowd containment situation, the officers are trained to control public access, even in a medical distress situation. Again, this will be a subject of expert testimony as to proper protocol following an officer-involved shooting.

  • Officer placing himself in front of a running vehicle -- This one I think is the easiest to counter. The vehicle was parked when he placed himself in front of the vehicle. As you see from the videos, he circled the vehicle with his cell phone filming. He worked his way to the front of the vehicle. At that point, there was no indication that the vehicle would be moving forward. That did not occur until the other agents approached and said get the fuck out of the vehicle. There is certainly no rule that requires officers never to go in front of a parked vehicle. It would be a much different situation if she were moving forward and then he jumped in front of her and shot. That is not what happened.
 
superrific said:
I have difficulty seeing five on SCOTUS interested in whitewashing this. I'd be surprised if they took cert on it. Of course, I've said that before so all bets are off. It's the 8th Circuit that might be more problematic.

That said, wouldn't the immunity decision in this case be made in state court?
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No. The defense will remove.

It is the same reason the Georgia cases were removed to federal court and eventually remanded (because court said fed officials were not acting as fed officials when the crime occurred).

Here, there is no dispute that it was a fed official acting in a fed capacity. That gets you into federal court. Then you have the immunity analysis. That could go either way given the federal judiciary and the politics involved. if the case survives, then state prosecutors would try it in federal court before a federal judge.
 
superrific said:
That's what people said about Chauvin too. Conservatives were reflexively siding with him too.

Also, the venue will help. Not just because Minneapolis is very liberal, but also because I doubt conservatives in MN are too keen on this. It's one thing for ICE to be shooting people in another place. It's different in your backyard.

You have more experience in court than me, but I think he fucked himself the minute he shared his video.
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Chauvin was a 9 minute situation. This was a split second situation. I think a more apt case is the Louisville case or perhaps the Ferguson case. Chauvin had plenty of time to think about what he was doing. I don't think that is a very analogous case.

Yes, Minneapolis is a favorable venue. It is possible that a change of venue motion would be granted. But even in Minneapolis, there are certain jurors who are willing to give the benefit of the doubt to law enforcement officers in fight or flight situations. They are not all superriffics or Calheels.
 
Calheel said:
Chauvin was a 9 minute situation. This was a split second situation. I think a more apt case is the Louisville case or perhaps the Ferguson case. Chauvin had plenty of time to think about what he was doing. I don't think that is a very analogous case.

Yes, Minneapolis is a favorable venue. It is possible that a change of venue motion would be granted. But even in Minneapolis, there are certain jurors who are willing to give the benefit of the doubt to law enforcement officers in fight or flight situations. They are not all superriffics or Calheels.
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I predict that if it gets to trial, they convict. There are too many factors working against the "fight or flight" factor here, including that he was not following department protocol. I don't think expert witnesses will, on balance, favor the ICE thug and I don't know what else he has.

My point about Chauvin was only that the conservatives rushed to his defense too, but after the initial rush of controversy was over, reality dawned.

As a prosecutor I would be most worried about the 8th Circuit
 
Have a question for the attorneys on the board.

If something like this were to go to trial, in the jury selection process, can either the prosecution or defense check the social media of potential jurors? It’s easy for someone to say they can be impartial but if their social media footprint says otherwise, that should be a factor in the decision to place them as a juror.
 
RockyMtnHoo said:
Have a question for the attorneys on the board.

If something like this were to go to trial, in the jury selection process, can either the prosecution or defense check the social media of potential jurors? It’s easy for someone to say they can be impartial but if their social media footprint says otherwise, that should be a factor in the decision to place them as a juror.
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They can so long as the jury pool is available in advance.

It's an evolving field.

Social Media Research on Prospective Jurors: Navigating Evolving Ethical Boundaries | DOAR Social Media Research on Prospective Jurors: Navigating Evolving Ethical Boundaries | DOAR
 
Screenshot_20260111_171119_YouTube.jpg
So, looking at a still photo, at the moment the gun is fired, the cops feet appear to be pointing almost directly at the driver side tire when either steam or smoke from the gun shows up. Seems pretty clear that he was not in front of the vehicle at the time the gun was discharged.

 
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